Talk:Dozen

"stórhundrað"

The Icelandic dictionary "Íslensk orðabók fyrir skóla og skrifstofur" mentions "stórhundrað". "stórhundrað" means 120. Regards Gangleri 21:49, 2004 Sep 26 (UTC)

Moved from article

Cannot agree with the Latin origination of the word. Really it is one of the oldest worlds in Hindo-European languagies, with the meaning "(full) right hand". One of the oldest method of counting is not by fingers, but by the fingers phalanges, using the thumb as a pointer. It allowed count rather big quantities (up to gross), using only two hands.

Removed possible copyvio

I removed the following paragraph:

Dozen

The word dozen is a contraction of the Latin Duodecim (two + ten). This root also appears in dodecagon (from duodecagon) and duodenum, the first part of the intestine that is about twelve inches long. Some math and language historians think that a dozen is one of the earliest primitive groupings, perhaps because there are approximately a dozen cycles of the moon in a cycle of the sun. It appears to be the basis of many larger values that were developed by many cultures. A shock was 60, or five dozen (a dozen for each finger on one hand) and many cultures had a "great hundred" [see hundred] of 120 or ten dozen (a dozen for each finger on both hands). The Romans used a fraction system based on 12 and the smallest part, an uncil became our word for an ounce. Charlemagne established a monetary system that had a base of twelve and twenty and the remnants persist in many places. In English money today 100 pence equals a Pound, but only a few short years ago a Pound was divided into 20 shillings of 12 pence each.

It may have been taken from http://www.pballew.net/arithme1.html (copyvio???).

Some of the material I have merged into the present article; some I have added to Duodecimal and 12 (number).--Niels Ø 13:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

thers no synonyms and antonyms 68.155.151.230 22:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Bob greoge

Baker's dozen

The description here of a baker's dozen being 12 plus one to taste is inconsistent with the wikipedia article on baker's dozen, which states that 13 were sold to avoid short measures in English medieval law. Not my place to determine either way, but there should be some consistency here. 212.248.246.18 13:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree. Says in the intro that a dozen is 12. yet then a baker's dozen is 12 (one more than a standard dozen)?!?Bensnowden (talk) 13:10, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Both are the case. That tradition (selling 13 per nedieval law) is antiquated. As far as I know...no one refers to a baker's dozen these days in this way. The common definition is a dozen plus one (as an extra bonus or one for the chef). It shouldn't be hard to revise the article Shabidoo | Talk 15:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

what the "baker's dozen" description is missing is the notion of price, that you pay for 12 and get an extra one, 13. It may well have started in a particular place because of net weight regulations, but this notion of price has the same meaning (13 for the price of 12) in the case of the "grocer's profit", or just a reward for any customer who buys 12 in bulk. The idea of a price discount for bulk purchase is not hard to understand, and the baker's innovation in this case is to maintain the same revenue rather than give a lower price. 2603:8001:D3F0:87E0:0:0:0:10D0 (talk) 20:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Last line: "This method for accounting was introduced by the Babylonians and its still in use today." Does this refer to base 10 or base 12 ? Suggest the pronoun "this" be replaced to clarify. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.164.59 (talk) 09:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

it could be both, things change from time to time, cultures to cultures but base was originally 10 in most cultures, whatever! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.0.139 (talk) 18:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Weird news

EU to ban selling eggs by the dozen. — Monedula (talk) 20:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Merge with Baker's dozen and Decimal Dozen

The Dozen article is not about the number twelve; that is the subject of the 12 (number) article. The Dozen article is about the word dozen, its etymology, and its usage. Baker's dozen and decimal dozen are simply two different cultural uses of the word dozen. Baker's dozen and Decimal Dozen should therefore be merged here. Neelix (talk) 14:40, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Mathematical rationale for baker's dozen

I removed the speculative mathematical rationale for baker's dozen, which albeit plausible, reads like original research. It's fascinating, and if it's been published in a reliable source it should be put back. –Pnm (talk) 16:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Wait, what?

How does counting your digits with your thumbs magically add two extra digits? Weren't Mesopotamians also equipped with the usual ten? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.144.81 (talk) 15:54, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

You don't count the digits; you count the segments of your digits. This system is also easily extensible to tetradecimal (counting the thumb's segments as well) or hexadecimal (counting the endpoints of the segments). As such you can count on your fingers for every human-scale even base, namely {6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16} (the first and last are arguably only marginally human-scale). Double sharp (talk) 15:13, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Can we get any sort of citation for this idea? If not, I will remove the sentence as OR. Imaginatorium (talk) 09:26, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I would add to this by pointing out that

  The "Do" "Duo" etc refers to 2.  The Mesopotamians also combined 10 into their system.
  There is a simpler way to account for the word dozen, which may also shed light on other significant numbers.  Counting each digit on your right hand goes up to 5.  Adding a digit on your left hand gets you 6.  Cycling thru your right hand again gets you to 11, and the next digit on your left hand will be two digits.  This is where the the "two" comes from, often referred to as "2 + 10," but is really "2 cycles".

Using this you can count up to 36. Again, you have not run out of digits. You have 10 toes. Ten fingers. 360days was a year [almost, off by 5 or 6], but that was a full circle. The lucky number 7 was a single digit on each hand. This has the added benefit of being demonstrative. You can hold up those two fingers to another person, and he will know "7" without the need for verbalization.

This is my first time doing anything on wikapaedia. My addition is simply based on an idea I had about 40 years ago, and I actually use this system I describe when doing exercise repetitions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:48:C500:E2C:7108:77B0:5D32:9C24 (talk) 13:45, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Baker's dozen again

I removed the quote claiming the baker's dozen originated in America, and referencing Forest, Heather (1988). The Baker's Dozen: A Colonial American Tale. This is a story book for (American) children, and not a reliable historical source. The webidence points towards a mediaeval English custom, with all sorts of specific references, yet tantalising not-quite-definite sources. But see Worshipful Company of Bakers (website) and Assize of Bread and Ale. Imaginatorium (talk) 02:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Other uses

This section contains very little material -- mostly just musings. Should it just be deleted? The Etymology section says that the various corresponding words in other languages can be used "as indefinite quantifiers to mean 'about twelve'..." -- this whole section does not really expand on this notion in any useful, sourced way. Possibly a couple of literary quotes would be a much better contribution, but where to find them? Imaginatorium (talk) 09:07, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

1. It's not a unit (natural unit?), so {{infobox unit}} is inappropriate. It's certainly not a unit defined by a standards committee, which is what {{Infobox unit}}} is for, per the documentation.
2. The link to Tally is to a disambiguation page and none of the links are correct; counting might be correct, once (not repeated in the infobox).
3. The conversions are misleading as to system, although 1/10 long hundred, 1/12 gross, and 0.6 score are technically correct.
4. The "unit system" and "unit of" fields are meaningless or absurd. (See point 1)
5. The "Named after" field is technically correct, although contains Easter eggs.
6. The "created" field may be correct, although it requires a source, not being in the body.

IMO, the infobox is inappropriate, and more wrong the right. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:47, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:The Dozens which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:22, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Why dozen eggs?

I have deleted the following about eggs being priced per dozen:

According to one source, sales by the dozen may derive from English units, a system under which “one egg could be sold for a penny or 12 for a shilling, which was equal to 12 pennies.”

While sourced, it is nonsense. In mediaeval times eggs cost 1d for two dozen; in the first half of the nineteenth century prices varied rather than being a steady 1d, but typically around 8d/dozen.

Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 21:24, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Phalange counting

I removed this bit:

Counting in base-12 can easily be accomplished on one's hands by counting each finger bone with one's thumb. Using this method, one hand can count to twelve, and two hands (with the second hand as a placeholder for representing units of twelve) can count to 144.

It has been there a long time, unsourced; somewhere in the history there is a suggestion it was just "Someone's Bright Idea". There is also an unsource, unsigned claim above, but this all looks extremely dubious. Imaginatorium (talk) 08:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Half-dozen

Six mentions that 6 is half-dozen JMGN (talk) 09:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)