Talk:Mentor (Odyssey)

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Disambiguation link

Contractor under the Mentor sector directs to a disambiguation page. The disambiguation page (unhelpfully) carries the definition, and this refers to a general understanding of "contractor". From a certain point of view redirecting to the disambiguation page helps, but is really "bad form". Would we be better linking to a specific contractor, or removing the link? I'll raise the point on the disambiguation page that we need a separate definition somehwere, properly linked to the dictionary. Not too sure what to do here... LeeG 13:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mentor vs. Mentes

As near as I can tell, Mentor and Mentes are separate people. In Odyssey I:225–228, Athena states "Behold in me / Mentes, the offspring of a chief renown'd / In war; Anchialus; and I rule, myself, / An island race, the Taphians oar-expert" (tr. Cowper). Which facts are all inconsistent with the description of Mentor presented here. In the abscence of other evidence, I'm removing "(sometimes Mentês)" from the lead. Sighrik 15:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Minimize Merger Mania

It has been suggested that Maître à penser be merged with Mentor, but no argument is developed making a case that it is logical to do so. Reading the 2 articles would leave one to question the value of such a merger. Recommend we not merge. Skaal - Williamborg (Bill) 02:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Odyssey Line Numbers

Book 2.225 not 2.255, I believe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.113.131 (talk) 00:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

Why is there a World AIDS Day at the bottom of this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zzez1919 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Telemachus

I can't find any corroborating evidence that "telemachus" would be a more accurate term than "mentee." This seems like an idea to me rather than a fact... 18.226.1.79 (talk) 18:14, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Geek

I came to came to check on this dictionary entry at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mentor:
"2. Mentor Greek Mythology Odysseus's trusted counselor, in whose guise Athena became the guardian and teacher of Telemachus." But could find no mention of him in the original, despite Mentor being an entry on Wikipedia stating that "In his old age Mentor was a friend of Odysseus".
What I have found now is this:
"Mentor was a son of Alcimus and a friend of Odysseus, who, on quitting Ithaca, entrusted to him the care of his house. (Hom. Od. ii. 226, &c., xxii. 235.) Athena assumed his appearance when she conducted Telemachus to Pylos. (Od. ii. 269, 402, iii. 13, &c., iv. 654.) On Odysseus' return, Mentor assisted him in the contest with the suitors, and brought about a reconciliation between him and the people (xxii. 206, xxiv. 445, &c.)." from http://mythindex.com/greek-mythology/M/Mentor.html (and a fantastic synopsis of the story at: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Mentor4.html)
LookingGlass (talk) 03:50, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

exprgtn

I removed a couple of items, rather less than facts, from this dubious excuse for a fuzzy article. cygnis insignis 17:44, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Mentor (Odyssey). Despite some late opposition, there is a clear consensus that mentorship is the primary topic. There also seems to be an agreement on using "(Odyssey)" as the disambiguation. Jenks24 (talk) 17:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mentor → Mentor (mythology) – While Mentor is the origin of the term "mentor", I think the latter has well eclipsed the former, both in terms of popularity and importance, over the last thousand years or so. The base title should redirect to Mentorship. (Fun fact: the top Google result for mentor -wikipedia is for a a company that makes "Breast Products", i.e., implants. That's some SEO for you.) --BDD (talk) 19:43, 11 August 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 13:46, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support the move and the proposed redirect; the clear primary topic of the word, to English speakers, is Mentorship. bd2412 T 22:50, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Am not convinced that the origin of a derived concept should be displaced. If displaced,...

prefer Mentor (Odyssey character), as Mentor is not mythological, but a character from Homer's poem. Mentor was an ordinary mortal, not mythological per se, but a support character. In the poem, the mythological Athena assumed the form of Mentor, slightly confusing the characters. If the character derived from an existing concept of mentorship (possible), the derivation is from Greek culture, not Greek mythology. Homer is not the source of Greek mythology. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:54, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. sovereign°sentinel (contribs) 01:54, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support per nom WP:PRIMARYTOPIC covered is at mentorship, and is not this topic -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 04:46, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Mentorship is the clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:50, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Steel1943 (talk) 19:22, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment. Sorry to do this when there's obviously such a clear consensus to move, but we still need to decide on what the disambiguation will be. SmokeyJoe has made a reasonable case for "(Odyssey character)". Jenks24 (talk) 13:46, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom, is this a case of character in mythology known through being a Odyssey character? Just as other mythological figures are known through literature? If so 'Mentor (mythology)', would be apt (and be clearer to dunces like me who don't know the answers to such questions). Pincrete (talk) 21:44, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If nothing else, I'd say Mentor (Odyssey) over Mentor (Odyssey character) per WP:CONCISE, and consistency with other members of Category:Characters in the Odyssey (though that does have an instance of the latter). I would say that Homer largely is mythology. I'd certainly like to think he was an actual man, but even that isn't really certain. As for Mentor, he may have been a mortal, but he was a mortal in mythology. There are certainly other instances of mortals in mythology that use that disambiguator, such as Europa (mythology). And I'm not sure what experts say, but I think it very unlikely that Mentor was an actual historical person. --BDD (talk) 22:16, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Homer was a man, but he was not the man attributed. He was another man who coincidentally had the same name. Joke aside, Homer may be mythology, by the Odyssey is not, it is a extant literary work. This work deals with many mythological figures, but there is no indication that Mentor is mythological. Mentor was just an ordinary ancient Greek name. In the poem, Mentor is a very minor support character, unimportant to characters outside Odysseus' family, if you distinguish between Mentor the old friend, and Athena disguised as Mentor. If not invented, is if far more likely that Athena-as-Mentor character existing in ancient Greek culture, not that there was a god of mentors. (If there were such a god, the god was Athena). It is very unlikely that Mentor was either an actual historical person, or a mythological figure at the time of writing. Mentor was just a minor character.

Zeus, Athena and Europa are clearly mythological. Odysseus, Penelope and Telemachus were probably mythological/legendary at the time of writing. Lesser characters, Philoetius, Mentor, the suitors, for example, are named but as are supporting characters only.

Happy to go with Mentor (Odyssey). I don't disagree with BDD.

There is a clear consensus to disambiguate this Mentor. If this title were at Mentor (mythology), I would propose a rename to Mentor (Odyssey) and not expect opposition. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:12, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Surely it's both—the Odyssey is an extant literary work that tells Greek myths. I don't think those are mutually exclusive. --BDD (talk) 23:40, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not surely, I am sure. The Odyssey was written by someone. It incorporates the myths/beliefs of the day (of which we have little other (Odyssey-pre-dating) evidence), but it clearly introduces numerous unimportant mortal characters that are not well described as mythological. We do have other independent evidence of Greek myths demonstrating that the Odyssey is not the primary source. "Retells" or "incorporates" is a better word than "tells". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:45, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The lede sentence today was disambiguation sentence for all known figures called "Mentor". Some are mythological, some not. I have edited the lede sentence, returning it near-enough to the original lede sentence. This Mentor is the son of Alcimus/Alcumus, defined/sourced in the Odyssey, and is not any of the other Mentors from other stories. This observation means that Mentor (mythology) would be incorrect/ambiguous, as there are other mythological Mentors as listed on the disambiguation page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:28, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Our article on mentorship sucks and I have little hope for it. The current setup maximises Wikipedia's usefulness. Also, "mentorship" is a relatively new word. Look at this ngram. The primary topic by long-term significance is probably the Greek figure and the use of his name. Srnec (talk) 19:25, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mentorship may be relatively recent, but is not the meaning of 'mentor' as 'guiding hand', well established? Pincrete (talk) 13:56, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely, but we're not a dictionary. My point is that the Greek figure and the metaphorical use of his name is an encyclopedic topic. It is not clear that mentorship in general actually is (because our page on it is so bad). Srnec (talk) 16:00, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, per Srnec. Under the same logic argued by several participants above, we could argue that the Homer article should be about a Simpsons character. Let's not go down this slippery slope.--Froglich (talk) 19:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.