Talk:Merkava/Archive 1

Archive 1

Cost

May be useful for this and other 'military equipment' articles: Include cost per unit data, if available. That can be important.

Since it is internal Israeli production and not intended for sale, there is no "price tag" on the Merkava. However, Israeli officer stated that it is cheper for Israel to obtain Merkava tanks rather than buy the M1A2 Abrams tank. MathKnight 21:26, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Images

Can anyone upload a GNU liscened pictured of Merkava tank? MathKnight 21:55, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

For temporary, here is a picture from Hebrew Wikipedia. If anyone has better picture with no copyright problems (fair use, GNU etc) please add it. MathKnight 11:24, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Several images were uploaded by now, so i removed the req for imgs altmany 00:16, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Is M. the 1st air conditioned tank?

I have heard rumours that the Merkava line was an air conditioned tank

from the start, and that it was the first tank in the world with this capability. Can someone please substantiate or debunk this? BACbKA 23:59, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I know that Mk3 was designed with built-in AC and NBC system (1990). MathKnight 11:17, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely not. From my sources, I know that the T-80 tank had an AC and NBC, and that tank was released a couple of years before the Merkava. AllStarZ 06:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

If a tank has NBC protection doesnt that mean that it must have some sort of air conditioning

Not A/C in the sense of something that cools it. HVAC yes, a/c no. // 3R1C 23:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

HVAC includes AC. One can have ventilation and overpressure without AC, but the HVAC acronym includes Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning. I'm not sure the Merkava was first.Mzmadmike 19:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

It would be useful if the term merkava was also explained as being an early Jewish mystical tradition. Merkava would then be Gods chariot. the mystic tries to get to that chariot. 2nd to 6th century Jewish Mysticism.

Added disambiguation link to top. AnonMoos 03:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Whether this is true or not (I assume it's true) I'm 100% sure this was NOT related to the decision to use this word in Hebrew - it's designers being sechular military people working for the Israeli government. Jewish mysticism is (or at least was) not part of the mainstream Israel common concience. Penedo 07:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Mysticism isn't part of the mainstream in a lot of countries, and yet millitary equiptment is often named for aspects of it. If that's where the name comes from it's completely relevant and very interesting to state it. OzoneO 08:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I was told it was called merkava due to this being the hebrew word for any chariot and the tank is akin to a chariot with its propulsion source at the front

Markings on their tanks

Hi, I'm curious to know what the markings on their tanks signify. Most of the ones I've seen have a large, upside down 'v' character on them. It is not hebrew now english, so I'm very curious to know what it means. See an example here: http://www.pitt.edu/AFShome/s/o/sorc/public/html/pittsjp/enfanttank.gif Thanks, Adidas 15:16, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

It's a tactical marking designating what platoon or company the tank belongs to. GABaker 18:10, 5 August 2005 {UTC)

Thank you GABaker Adidas 08:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

the v repesents the first company, < the second and V upside down- the third. the number of stripes on the canon represents the number of the batallion in the brigade.

appearance in popular culture

Are references to appearances in pop culture (movies, videogames) appropriate for articles on military hardware? NEMT 19:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

* Armament

I think the "or" for the coaxial armament should be changed to either "and" or "and/or" since you will see it most common to have BOTH a coaxial 7.62 MG (internal)and a 50cal coaxial (sitting on top of the cannon). Case in point is the pic someone provided in a different section above

http://www.pitt.edu/AFShome/s/o/sorc/public/html/pittsjp/enfanttank.gif

Also there is no pic of a mk 4

And new tech for the merkava is the Trophy active armour system developed by Rafael.

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/7/607.pdf

Like any other tank, the Merkava is vulnerable to remotely operated landmines.

??? They destroyed thoose Merkavas with 100 kg TNT, not usual mines!!!

short chains

What are the short chains hanging off the back of the turret? --Gbleem 03:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Most likely serve to protect against shaped-charge weapons such as RPGs by pre-detonating them, thereby reducing the effectiveness of the warhead (shaped charges need a fairly precise standoff distance to work well). Riddley 22:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Could a dangling chain trip the trigger? --Gbleem 22:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Riddley is right. They are called sa'arot Shulamit. Don't know why. --Shuki 20:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Shulamit, as far as I remember, was the laydey who messed up Shimshon (Samson). All I can find on the net about this term is about some sort of a fern with that name, according to the Hebrew Wikipedia it's translated to "Adiantum capillus-veneris" (see: http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%95%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA).

The girl's name was Delilah. I couldn't fing any biblical reference to Sulamith or Shulamit or similar. Another thing - sa'arot Shulamit means Sulamith's hair in hebrew. --Super.zhid 08:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Numbers?

How many of which types are in service?

250 Mk.1 (all upgraded to Mk1.B)

550-600 Mk.2 (some upgraded to Mk2.D)

550-600 Mk.3 (including Mk.3 Baz and Mk.3D)

150-200 Mk.4

Merkava variants

- Merkava 1 (Merkava Mk 1)

- Merkava 1 Bet (Merkava Mk 1B)

- Merkava 2 (Merkava Mk 2)

- Merkava 2 Bet (Merkava Mk 2B)

- Merkava 2 Bet dor Dalet (Merkava Mk 2D)

- Merkava 3 (Merkava Mk 3)

- Merkava 3 Bet (Merkava Mk 3B)

- Merkava 3 Bet BAZ (Merkava Mk 3B BAZ)

- Merkava 3 Bet BAZ dor Dalet (Merkava Mk 3D)

- Merkava 4 (Merkava Mk 4)

- Namer

- Namera

- Slammer (Sholef) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.50.102.115 (talk • contribs)

- Merkava 4 Bet (Merkava Mk 4B) --Shuki 20:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Merkava ambulance exterior

Hi. I'm intersted in the exterior of a Merkava MEDEVAC version. Does it have the Magen David Adom mark on it? (Talk:Ambulance#Merkava MK III ambulance) --GunnarRene 14:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

50 hit 30 killed 100 injured

during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict 50 Merkavas were hit and damaged, with 30 crew members killed and 100 injured - the numbers looks too round, are they accurate? --Super.zhid 22:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No. Flayer 14:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite accurate

Internal mortar

Since this appears to be an unusual feature on a tank, does anyone have any more infomation on the internal mortar, such as where it is located/fires out of, or indeed a photo of it? Hellfire83 18:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Made by Soltam, quite easy to use, range, and correct targeting, full operation from inside including loading. Non-static firing pin. --Shuki 21:38, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Infantry compartment

I always though the Merkava could carry a few infantrymen in the back. Is this just a myth based on the back door? —Michael Z. 2006-11-13 04:38 Z

True. The internal ammunition containers are removable. --Shuki 21:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Version Nomenclature

Since there is no official documenation (that I can find) that dictates the naming conventions on the merkava, edits of "Merkava Mk.1" to "Mark 1" (and subsequent versions) were made with the interest of wikifying the article. If the anonymous editor that consistently makes those edits would like to post a legitimate reference to this naming scheme, feel free. I'm assuming that you are basing these edits off of Israel-Weapons.com, and the conventions there are not considered official. Thanks! 3R1C 13:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Merkava - Program

When in doubt about article naming, simply do a straw poll of other similar articles. There is no reason for this article to stand out with 'program'. Every major weapon system is a long-term program. If someone feels that the Merkava deserves two articles than see how it was done here: Space Shuttle. As for the first paragraph, why is the number of manufactures/suppliers so important to get to right away? Please rewrite. --Shuki 19:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Powerpack / Powerplant

To the anonymous editor that keeps changing powerplant to powerpack, in reference to the engine of the tank: It's powerplant. When referring to the primary power source of a mechanical device. Please see the first item on "powerplant." it's going to be either powerplant or engine, not powerpack. // 3R1C 21:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The US military also uses "powerpack" in reference to a modular and changeable assembly. The engine is the powerplant. The engine, transmission, related support equipment and gearing is colloquially called a "powerpack" if it can be removed as one assemblyMzmadmike 19:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Just pick one or thoe other. // 3R1C 13:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced statements

Two anonymouse editors (or possible one on two addresses) have been on a spree of adding unsourced statements. Removal of these statements resulted in reversions, so as a result, I am tagging every unsourced statement. Hopefully these editors will cease adding data without sources, and will start sourcing their statements. // 3R1C 23:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Ya, and now the article looks like shit with a "citation needed" superscript after every sentence. Way to go. 24.65.141.226 00:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

As opposed to the entire article being completely speculative? Right. // 3R1C 14:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the person above; there are far two many requests for citations in this article, when some of the description is self-explanatory, as in

"Placing the powerplant at the front of the tank added a large amount of mass to the front area of the tank while moving the main turret towards the back of the hull[citation needed]. The relocation of these core systems allows for proper visual balance and weight distribution throughout the platform, as well as affording the crew more protection from a frontal attack[citation needed]."

As in, 'putting the engine in front means there's another big dang hunk of metal between the crew and the majority of incoming hostile fire'. Yes, that makes sense. Rather than requiring the original author to source some treatise on tank design, I'd say someone in disagreement has the burden of evidence on them.

Mechanikermaat 05:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

After 3216513216 anonymous POV edits, it was done to prevent an editor from continuously from violating POV and NOR. Since that author has decided to stop making such edits, I've removed a good portion of them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 3R1C (talk • contribs) 13:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

OT Paragraph

The very last paragraph, beginning with "It is only with the accuracy of time and hindsight...", seems to be a rant about the 2006 Lebanon war and also quite biased. Either way it has nothing to do with the Merkava MBT. Should probably be removed? // Sarastro 17:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The entire last general remarks section is very interesting reading but entirely OR. 'According to this', 'according to that' doesn't hold water on WP. everything has to be 'hard' sourced. --Shuki 21:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It should go // 3R1C 22:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)