Talk:Shōnen-ai

First header

A previous version of this page stated that the English term "BoyLove" had displaced 'shonen-ai' in Japan. This is untrue; "boylove" is a (probably mostly English) euphemism for what the Japanese would call shotacon.

Serves me right for not doing better research. I put in the new paragraphs about "Boys Love" et al., mostly taken from the Japanese Wikipedia. 'Scuse while I clean the egg off my face. --Aponar Kestrel 19:09, 2004 Jul 29 (UTC)

The SAMPA pronunciation was also removed, being probably unnecessary. --Aponar Kestrel 00:02, 2004 Jul 29 (UTC)

"the relationships depicted are between boys, ... and are often completely psychologically impossible" This sounds a bit POV to me. Do you want to clarify?--Asbestos 2004 Oct 24

I assume someone will revert the edit an anonymous user did, but it's obvious what they intended. Gravitation is the only one of the listed series that is actually considered BL, I believe. And instead of listing "series that include shōnen-ai elements of various degrees" I think it might be better to list well-known actual BL series? --Galaxiaad 7 July 2005 04:11 (UTC)

I'm for making seperate lists of BL manga, shounen-ai manga (made durring the period the phrase was used) & "BL innuendo" series, as in heavily implied but hardly the center focus of the series.

I must agree with Asbestos about the rather ambiguous comment referring to the "unrealistic dynamics" and "psychological impossibility" of shounen-ai. There is very little explaination offered, and one is left wondering exactly what the implications of such a statement may be...

June???

Girls whom own Japanese BL websites have told me that June isn't just a magazine, it's a genre related to BL & yaoi. The problem is that they either can't give a straight answer as to what it is or their answers don't match. So far I've been given the impression that it's "original BL novel." what the heck is it?

Alternate Spellings

Aside for the fact that entering the kanji for "shounen ai" in Google Search will get you 90% fewer legitimate results that entering BL in Google Japan, on these sights I've noticed warnings in English about the content. The most common romaji spellings are "Syota" & occasionaly "Syounen Ai." (the latter trying to describe what BL is to those who both read nglish & use the dated term).

Cleanup

Did some general cleanup and made things look a little neater. Hopefully the government of Liechtenstein will be pleased. Wilybadger 02:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Pedophilia

Does Shōnen-ai really carry connotations of pedophilia? I know the word currently means "pederasty" in Japanese, but that's a slightly different thing... 惑乱 分からん 16:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The term shonen-ai in japan is usually used to describe a relationshiip involving a young boy.

I've been studying this genre for two decades, and I never once have heard "shounen ai" used in Japanese to refer to an adult man's love for a young boy. True, the term is used by social historians in that sense, but it has probably not been used that way in colloquial Japanese for a century. It might be appropriate, though, to add a note about the use of the term in social history. Matt Thorn (talk) 11:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The impression that BL/Shounen-ai often involve pre-pubescent boys

The article keeps making mention of "young boys", even going as far as mentioning age ranges ("as far down as ten"). However, Shounen Ai most often deals with boys and men who are teenagers and older. In fact, Shounen ai rarely deal with boys who aren't yet teenagers.

For an actual term for depictions of homosexual relationships between pre-pubescent boys: Shotacon (often abbreviated as Shota). Though the Shotacon genre is almost exclusively X-rated in content, the term itself describes homosexual relationships involving at least one boy who's not yet a teenager.

Unless people object, I'm gonna edit the article heavily.

(FallenAngelII)

I understood that shonen-ai is teens-college age young men (say maybe 16-22) and they're usually past puberty. Go ahead and hack away, FallenAngelII. These things need to be clarified. Shotacon and shounen-ai are not one and the same, just as lolicon and shoujo-ai aren't. Jaguara 03:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I just edited this article heavily. It lost about 33% of its text. Every single mention of "young boy" or "ages whatever to" was deleted as was some random babble about most viewers or readers probably initially coming in contact with shounen-ai when being introduced to it by friends. (FallenAngelII)

From what I have heard from my people and sources, shonen-ai is a term used to describe a relationship involving at least one underage boy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 15:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, here's the problem of using the term as if this is a living genre, and not a historical one. Manga that are called shounen ai are almost by definition stories of love between pubescent or adolescent boys. Anything elsejust ain't shounen-ai. It's either boys' love (which today commonly has protagonists in their twenties or thirties, or in which one partner may even be in his fifties) or shotacon. Yaoi, boys' love, and to a lesser degree shotacon all have their roots in shounen-ai, so it doesn't make sense to talk about them as if there's no connection, but conflating these terms is obviously a problem. Unless someone is willing to create a historical article that is truly only about shounen ai, then I suggest having the terms "shounen ai", "yaoi", and "boys' love" all redirect to an article titled "boys' love" (since that is the common term used in Japan today), and talk about shoun ai as the ancestor of yaoi and boys' love. Shotacon is really a different sort of phenomenon, owing more to lolicon than to shounen ai, and so deserves a separate article (if it deserves one at all). Matt Thorn (talk) 12:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

References and original research

While trying to track down why some maintenance tags where added to some articles, I noticed that someone has put a {{disputed}} tag on this article. I removed the tag, but I also noticed that the article doesn't use any references and one section Some anime and manga with stories that include some shounen-ai can be viewed as original research since a few of the titles are arguable.

Well, the word is "can be". Meaning not all of them are totally arguable. Also, it does depend on when one draws the line at. Clear subtext, In-your-face canon or subtle but obvious? Don't forget, there's a reason why the category is called containing "Some shonen-ai". Sakura rin24 14:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Shōnen-ai/Yaoi/Shota

Although I don't really know much about most of the anime/manga listed, I've noticed that some of them don't really seem to be shōnen-ai, which is sexually implicit, but instead Yaoi or Shotacon, with more sexually explicit themes. Should these be removed and/or placed in the appropriate listings? Just wondering - Bored461 05:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that the yaoi and shota have to be removed from the list. I mean, you can't just put shota and yaoi in a list of shounen-ai titles; They're very and distinctly different genres. I'll take them off. Abby724 19:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Another note on this: the article is listed in the Category:Yaoi. I'll remove this cat now and will propose a Category:Shōnen-ai on the WP:Anime talk page. Ninja neko 08:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"Partly containing shōnen-ai" section

What is the point of having that section? There is a section listing all shōnen-ai manga, so readers can find them. But why do we need a list of every manga that contains a gay character? And as mentioned above, there is A LOT of OR in there. I don't think this section has any added value. Also, don't just remove tags, they're there for a reason. Ninja neko 07:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, this section also encompasses anime not just solely manga. More importantly, what about the future listing of anime which shonen-ai are significant but not pertinant to the storyline or only between supporting characters? Aside from it, well.. since a number of people did contribute to it, I was unsure of just removing it like that. And, yes I removed the OR tag as it seems to be the basis for removal of the section plus discussion didn't seem to say one way or the other and perhaps anyone could help clean it up and make it less OR. ..Do you really want the section done away with? Sakura rin24 11:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally, yes. I don't think it adds anything to the article. Readers wanting to know about shōnen-ai can find good examples in the first section. The 'partially' section's titles will always remain a matter of debate I think, because where would you draw the line? A gay main character, a gay minor character, a gay relationship between minor characters? I think the criteria for 'partially' would be based on personal opinions. Ninja neko 15:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd still like to delete this section, and rename the other section to 'Notable shōnen-ai anime and manga' - or replace it (and the video game section) with Category:Shōnen-ai. Can I go ahead? Ninja neko 10:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In other words, both the anime lists will still be maintained, presumebly just not in this current shonen-ai article? If so, feel free to go ahead but could you put a link to the section back here? Sakura rin24 18:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the sections and replaced it with a link to the category. Anime, manga and games which have noteable shōnen-ai themes should be collected into the category. This will also avoid having every single title with a gay character listed in this article. Title of the new section is Shōnen-ai#Shōnen-ai media, but if anyone can think of a better way to word it (not too long please), feel free to change. Ninja neko 06:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I liked this section. If the Yuri/shoujo-ai article has this section, then why can't the shounen-ai article have it? DeidaraNoAijin 18:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Because some people keep reverting removals of the sections. The inclusion of the lists in other articles is not a sign of support for shojo-ai and not shonen-ai.--SeizureDog 20:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

JEEZ, JUST BRING BACK THE "SHONEN-AI AS AN ADDITIONAL ELEMENT" ..........PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! Jonica c —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.95.76.189 (talk) 15:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's use our inside voices, Jonica c. (^_^;) Matt Thorn (talk) 12:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Nitpicking about"anime"

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable with the consistent placement of the word "anime" ahead of the word "manga" in this article? I know that a lot of non-Japanese may first encounter shounen ai via anime, but virtually every shounen ai anime ever made was based a manga that preceded it. Original anime with male homosexual themes that is not based on a manga is invariably of the yaoi/boys' love type. (In other words, "post shounen ai".) I know that a lot of Western fans seem to think of manga as "anime that doesn't move", and therefore secondary to anime, but in Japan, it is manga that dominates, particularly in the field of shounen ai/yaoi/boys' love. This was even more true back in the 1970s and 1980s, when original anime in this genre would simply have not been cost-effective. Sometimes the original work is a novel, rather than a manga, but rarely is the anime the original product. Am I making sense here? Matt Thorn (talk) 14:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Merged and reassessed

As part of the merge to yaoi, I've changed the class on the talk banners to be Not Applicable, as shonen-ai is no longer its own article but a redirect. Previously, the article was rated as Start class by all three projects. -Malkinann (talk) 12:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)