Talk:George Enescu

Too subjective

I think, some of the additions from Jan 2007, have to be overworked. Though most of it is great, some contributions are driven by personal taste. This includes the selection of works in the appendix, the attribution of Enescu's music as being "neo-classical", "neo-baroque", or "late romantic" (that indeed has been discussed in books and articles, but not agreed upon), the overestimated influence of Romanian folk music and of the doina (there are in fact very few doinas in his works), and so on. Describing the "the special character" of some of his works as "childlike sense of immediacy and intimacy" is too subjective for a Wikipedia article.

Perhaps there are some opinions?

Thanks, Varatec

Varatec, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

There are opinions, indeed, and the opinions in this material you cite all belong to Noel Malcolm, and were cited verbatim from his article on Enescu in the New Grove. I have removed all six paragraphs on grounds of copyvio, in conformity with Wikipedia copyright policy.--Jerome Kohl 22:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Linkspam

09/24/06 - Linkspam (cf. Schissel's remark in 08/27/06). Does the Wikipedia article really need three external links to CD reviews? And the Enescu Festival and Competition in Bucharest is a general music festival, not particularly devoted to Enescu. We should have a separate article about the festival, but not a link there from a George Enescu biographical article. What do you think?

Greatest interprets

What does 'one of the greatest interprets of his time' mean? I didn't want to just go in and change it to 'interpreters' in case it should be something else, but if someone is more confident of what the original writer meant they should go for it...

I think it should be changed into 'one of the greatest performers'. The Romanian word 'interpret' translates into English 'performer', so probably the author of this page made a confusion.

Overlooked genius

One of the greatest composers of all times. Greatly overlooked: a situation reminiscent to that of Timo K. Mukka in literature. A situation, however, which Gidon Kremer has done somewhat to correct. RCSB 20:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Perfect example of WP:FORUM - no discussion of the article whatsoever.

Third Romanian Rhapsody?

Musicologist Sigmund Spaeth, in his book A Guide to Great Orchestral Music, mentions a third Romanian Rhapsody in g minor. I also once heard one of WQXR's anouncers introduce what he said was "the first of Georges Enesco's three Rumanian Rhapsodies." I have never found any recordings of it or any other references to it. Are these people mistaken or does it in fact exist?

Kostaki mou 02:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no 3rd rhapsody. Sometimes the Ouverture on Romanian Folk Themes from 1948 is called a "third rhapsody", though, of course, it is not.

Recordings

I really can't figure out how come this section is missing. He made some of the most important recordings of the last century. It would be a shame not to even mention a couple of them. Also, a short biography (a real one, not just a mere time-table) wouldn't hurt.

Monitort (talk) 11:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Romanian money

George Enescu on 50000 Leu banknote

FYI... here's an image that can be added to the article if anyone is interested. Also, it would be nice if one of the images of Enescu was chosen to the the main image at the top-right of the article. DavidRF (talk) 04:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Low importance???

I do not understand wikipedia. This article is rated as of low importance. Such an extraordinary violinist and teacher of great violinistis of the XX century (Menuhin just as an example)...

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a Start-class article; it is missing significant sections of musicology that a composer article should have. My detailed review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 01:18, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Harvard

Our article on Leroy Anderson states that "In 1925 Anderson entered Harvard University, where he studied … harmony with George Enesco"; yet this article makes no mention of Harvard, nor indeed of Enescu visiting the USA at all. Should it? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 16:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. I have checked the New Grove articles on both Enescu and Anderson. The former does not mention Harvard, while the latter does not confirm that Anderson studied harmony with Enescu but, rather, says "He also worked with Spalding (theory), Ballantine (counterpoint), Heilman (fugue), and Piston and Enescu (composition) at Harvard where, from 1930 to 1934, he pursued studies in German and Scandinavian languages." While the New Grove is not necessarily the last word, it would appear to at least partially contradict the Wikipedia article on Leroy Anderson. On the other hand, the New Grove article on Enescu does mention his frequent visits to the US starting in 1923 (so the time-frame is plausible for Enescu, at least, though Anderson was only 17 years old in 1925—unusually young to matriculate at Harvard), and "it was there, in the 1920s, that Enescu was first persuaded to make a small number of recordings as a violinist. American orchestras also offered him frequent opportunities to conduct (in 1936 he was one of the candidates considered to replace Toscanini as permanent conductor of the New York Philharmonic). A performance by Enescu in San Francisco in 1925 inspired the young Yehudi Menuhin, who came to Europe and studied under him from 1927 onwards."—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm indebted. Would you care to add something of that to the article, or shall I? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 19:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll be happy to add this material to the Enescu article. I think someone needs to double-check the date, at least, for the Anderson article. Perhaps a "fact" tag needs placing there (unless there is already a cited source—I haven't looked to see).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

on a simil;ar note, the article on the mannes school lists him as having been faculty. does that warrant inclusion here, or is it one of those ridiculous claims made in wp by the alumni of schools to include every famous person who ever walked across the campus?Toyokuni3 (talk) 14:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Elisabeth of Wied in photo with Enescu

I have changed the name in the caption of the photo from Elisabeth of Wied to Queen Elisabeth of Romania, since that is what it says on the photo (in Romanian). I don't expect any objection. P0mbal (talk)

good start - needs work - especially befitting the 'most important' of Rumanian composers

However - there may be a paucity of sources in English. The Grove, of course, is there. It's a sticky business using sleevenotes and reviews as Reliable Sources for Wiki. I've recently begun to "dig in" to this composer, and the more info on him here, the better. Do we have any Rumanian or European classical fans here that are fluent in the Rumanian language that could utilize non-English sources for the article? The local university here is very scant on any info on this man, so I imagine the "best" or at least the most exhaustive sources are from Rumanian musicologists. HammerFilmFan (talk) 20:43, 19 July 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

I am neither a native speaker nor even what you could call fluent, but I do read enough Romanian to get by. I have been lurking on the sidelines so far as this article is concerned, but could be convinced to become more active, in the absence of any more fluent speakers of the language. The two most important Romanian-language sources currently listed are Voicana et al. 1971, and Axente and Ratiu 1998. I own a copy of the former, and have access to the latter in my university library. What exactly did you have in mind? Beef up the biography section first, or concentrate more on the music?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:05, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for a quick response! I would think the biography first, as descriptions of the music exist for many of his individual pieces in English. But one thing I'd like to see for the composer's article that would be of interest to readers, is how much truly Rumanian folk song or style is used in his music; I know he used "Gypsy" themes/techniques, but just like in Listz's rhapsodies (Bartok came along to accurately capture Hungarian folk music), these are not truly 'native' - I am completely ignorant of Vlach folksong, unless it has been used in a movie that I have seen. I've seen "sampler" or "demo" LP's before of things like "Instruments of the Dacians" but, of course, that stuff is entirely speculative and today we have no idea whatsoever of what Dacians or the Getae had for music. I haven't caught up on when Vlach folk music came into its own - I would think by the 1300's something substantial would have existed so that by the time of Enescu's composing, he'd have a body of tunes/style to utilize in his music other than the folk music of the Romani? A brief overview of this, if it exists in the Sources, would be a great addition, IMHO. HammerFilmFan (talk) 13:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

Sounds like a plan! As for the extant descriptions of individual pieces, I've just been editing the article on his very best-known compositions, the two Romanian Rhapsodies and, if the state in which I found it is anything to go by, sources in English aren't worth much. (You might like to take a look at the edit history there.) For the rest, Enescu was not an ethnomusicologist (as Bartók and Kodlály were), and so it would be unreasonable to expect from him a deep knowledge of the rural folk music music of his country. It is also frequently observed that he "absorbed" folk elements into his compositional style, rather than actually quoting folksongs—with a few exceptions, mainly the two Romanian Rhapsodies. Consequently, I wouldn't get my hopes up about any great revelations about the presence of actual non-gypsy Romanian folk music in Enescu's compositions.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:56, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Is the online New Grove article on the composer significantly more detailed than the ç1980'ish print copy? Newer does not necessarily mean better, especially with the Grove at times .... HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:20, 21 July 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

I haven't seen the 1980 New Grove article, so I don't know. In fact, I have rarely consulted the "Old New" Grove since it was superseded in 2001 by the "New New" Grove (that is, the second edition, which is the basis of the online Grove). You are correct, though, that sometimes the replacement article is not as good as the previous model, though this is the exception rather than the rule. Very occasionally, I have come across an article in the 2001 second edition that proves to have been carried forward not just from the 1980 edition, but even goes back all the way to the original "Old" Grove of 1880 (though edited to bring the language up to date). In the present case, though, I doubt that any version of the New Grove article is likely to yield information that cannot be found in the (very numerous) Romanian-language sources. The bibliography in Voicana et al. 1971 runs to 64 pages, with the majority of entries in Romanian—and that book is now forty years out of date.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:33, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to take a look at the 2001 edition later today at the unitversity. The 1980 edition only had a couple of pages on Enescu (the article on Max Bruch was even worse.) HammerFilmFan (talk) 10:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

Article's Section 3.4.4 Piano music

Streaming in on the Klara Continuo music service from Belgium, I just heard:

George Enescu: Prelude en Fuga in C: [Movement #] 1.Prelude - Luiza Borac; piano - AVIE AV-2081 [08:55]

Looking up the AVIE recording, there are a few piano pieces that are not included in the article. Feel free to remove my comment before or after the additional pieces are added to the article. Thanks for your help. Best luck, Nei1 (talk) 14:34, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Do please keep in mind that this article includes only a selection of the composer's most important works. There is a complete list (or at least, complete by intention), at List of compositions by George Enescu, which included 22 piano works without opus number, for example.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:21, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of George Enescu: 2009-01-31== This is an assessment of article George Enescu by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Sketchy. No real professional details; little compositional history. ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Sketchy. No real professional details; little compositional history. ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Minimal style discussion; no critical or popular commentary. Peacock statements in lead are not justified in the body. ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) Images; some sound. Image and sound layout needs work. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? References are listed in inconsistent styles; no inline citations. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Lead is short, and contains unsupported peacock statements. Some overshort paragraphs. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article footer material needs organization (WP:LAYOUT) Article prose needs work (WP:MOS) ===Summary=== This is a flawed article. It contains a very basic sketch of the composer's life, and lists his works, with a very basic mention of his style. There is little mention of how he made his living; personal details are also relatively limited. There is no significant discussion of the context in which major works were written. There is no critical or popular appreciation. More importantly, the lead contains assertions that are peacock language. They may be true (or not), but this article doesn't show that. Article is Start-class; significant factual coverage lacking. Magic♪piano 01:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 01:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 15:59, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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