Talk:Treason of the Long Knives

Name

It seems to me that the (original) is problematic. Normally we would identify by date, but there is no agreed-upon date for what may not even have been a true event. Original is just a tad POV given that someone else might think the Nazi event was the original. I don't have a better solution right now, though. --Dhartung | Talk 18:01, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I did put that, since many people think that the Nazi event is the original. --JK

If "Original" is taken in the sense of "source" or "originating point", then there is no problem. Many real-world words and phrases have mythical origins and it is quite unimportant as to whether the myths occured or not, in the sense that it doesn't alter the fact that later usage is based on the earlier usage and could not have occured without the earlier usage, regardless of whether the earlier events had been real. In this case, it seems likely that the naming of the Nazi event is a product of a family of legends involving massacres and betrayal during the Dark Ages at social gatherings and situations of high trust.

I would also note that although Geoffrey of Monmouth is about as reliable as a supermarket tabloid, even the tabloids have managed to stumble on real stories. Furthermore, the Romans themselves had been originally asked into Britain to help settle a dispute between warring tribes, prior to seizing control. That such events might have occured another go around is entirely possible. (It's also possible the legends originated with the Romans, refer to some other, similar, experience at some other time, or were entirely made up on the spot by Geoffrey and similarities with real people, living or dead, were purely coincidental.) JD

The event seems likely enough, but I felt that "Arthurian" was a better qualifier. The origin of the term is emphasized in the articles on the various versions. Robert A.West (Talk) 12:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The addendum on the Treachery of the Blue Books is fair enough, but the last sentence is factually incorrect (although supported with a reference). It isn't needed in the context of this article, and would be better placed in the Blue Books article, where balancing opinions can be added. . . .LinguisticDemographer 16:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"The Night of the Long Knives is the name Geoffrey of Monmouth gave to the (possibly apocryphal) treacherous killing of native British chieftains...". Where does Geoffrey call it that? Though Geoffrey does describe the incident I can't find that he gives it any name whatever. If it comes to that, I don't remember any ancient telling of this story that calls it "The Night of Long Knives". I suggest the page be retitled "Treachery of the Long Knives". Antiquary 21:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Geoffrey of Monmouth did not call this incident "night of the long knives", neither in English nor in Latin. --Alex1011 (talk) 22:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Since there have been no dissenting voices in the last seven years I suggest it's time to make the change. Hope I'm not rushing this. --Antiquary (talk) 17:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

The historian John Davies uses Treachery of the Blue Knives as does The Encyclopaedia of Wales. These are the main reliable, non-partial sources in Welsh history. Secondly, both 'Treachery of the Blue Knives' and the 'Treachery of the Blue Books' need to be consistent. Cell Danwydd (talk) 15:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Cell Danwydd, by "The Encyclopaedia of Wales" do you mean "The Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales"? The English version of that calls them "Treason of the Long Knives" and "Treason of the Blue Books". -- DeFacto (talk). 17:39, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

First use of the name

Cell Danwydd, DeFacto, when is the phrase "Brad y Cyllyll Hirion" first used? Geoffrey of Monmouth doesn't seem to use the exact phrase. Does either version of the "The Encyclopaedia of Wales" have an answer? TSventon (talk) 21:37, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@TSventon, I don't know the answer to that and it is not mentioned in the "Treason of the Long Knives, The" article in the English version of that encyclopaedia - why do you ask? -- DeFacto (talk). 10:44, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

DeFacto, we know who coined "Treason of the Blue Books", so it is interesting to ask who coined "Treason of the Long Knives" or its Welsh version. I tried looking online and found "plot of the Long Knives" in wikisource:Triads of Britain by Iolo Morganwg, who apparently used a variety of sources or simply invented them. TSventon (talk) 11:38, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

DeFacto, could you help with the OED again? According to their blog the name treachery of the long knives was "first recorded in English in about 1604, but in Welsh (twyll y cyllyll hirion), in or before 1587." Which books and authors is the OED referring to? TSventon (talk) 11:20, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@TSventon, it cites M. Hanmer Chron. Ireland 49 in Two histories of Ireland (ed. James Ware) 1st edition, 1633 (1 vol). -- DeFacto (talk). 13:00, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

DeFacto, thank you, that is Meredith Hanmer, is the headword for the Cite OED template Long knives? Doesn't the OED mention a Welsh source in 1587? It is almost certainly Y Drych Cristianogawl, the first book printed in Wales. TSventon (talk) 13:35, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@TSventon, it's in the entry for 'long knife, n', yes. Under that it describes 3 uses of the plural, the first being: 'a. treachery (also plot, treason) of the long knives:..." and that reference is given for the first listed use of that phrase being: "Through the treason of Hengist, (which the Britaines call Toill y Killill Hirion, the treason of the long knives) the Nobles and Princes of Britaine were slaine and buried.". -- DeFacto (talk). 14:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you DeFacto, that is disappointing, I was hoping for a mention of Y Drych Cristianogawl. I had found the quote from Hanmer at https://archive.org/details/chronicleofirela00hanmuoft/page/98/mode/2up. TSventon (talk) 14:11, 27 September 2021 (UTC)