Talk:Eastern Wu

What's the difference between the "State of Wu" and "Kingdom of Wu"? --Jiang 06:58, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The "State of Wu" usually refers to a state during the Spring and Autumn Period, but is occasionally used the describe the state governed by the Sun family during the decline of the Later Han dynasty, whereas the term "Kingdom of Wu" is used to describe the state after Sun Quan declared himself emperor. Chuximus

The Kingdom and State of Wu

As Sun Jian said in Dynasty Warriors 4, "I vow that one day, the Tiger of Jiang Dong, will bring peace back to the land." The preformance of Wu soldiers and generals can not be questioned but it can be challenged. At the time being of their struggle, the army of Wu with Sun Jian and Sun Ce had to retake back their own lands from regional leaders who invaded their land. During those times, Sun Jian died in battle and Sun Ce died after a wound reopens, but they managed to recruite or convince other officers to join their ranks. Looking at Wu, they did not have the one thing that they need most. The Wu kingdom had less man power, but they did fulfill the requirements of the others. They had generals of many talent and the strategy to combat any smaller enemy troops. This is where the alliance at Chi Bi with Liu that they were able to recover as well as gain more soldiers after Zhou Yu lead the South Land to victory. The Kingdom and State of Wu shows me and maybe others that they had many talented officers and generals yet they did not have enough man power to repel an overwheling force like Cao Cao and the kingdom of Wei.--Zhang Liao 16:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Sun Jian actually spent very little time in Yang province, which was Sun Ce's power base. He held only local authority there for a brief time, and did not return after the Yellow Turban Rebellion. Sun Jian was killed while fighting on behalf of Yuan Shu, and Sun Ce's army during the time of Cao Cao's struggle with Yuan Shu was large and powerful enough to give Cao Cao and Liu Biao reason to fear. In addition, numerous censuses in the era show that for the overwhelming majority of the time, Wu was actually far closer to Wei in terms of manpower than Shu was. Most maps of the era show that Wu was nearly as large as Wei. -- Schlechtentag

"Zhang Liao"'s idea for the details of Wu's state should be ignored. It's a fan lover of the old Dynasty Warriors games. The quote should not be used and should be disregaurded since most of the information here isn't even remotely true. Schelchy here has it close, but I'm looking at my book **right now** written by Luo Guanzhong. (The one with heavy fantasy in it.) Guanzhong here claims Sun Jian did much fighing up north and was actually a protector in the areas east of Shou Chun (A bit north of the southland rivers.) Sun Jian was supposedly killed while returning home by Liu Bao's soldiers, not Yuan Shu. Sun Ce, Jian's son, took refuge along with the remants of the army under Yuan Shu's service. Sun Ce then borrowed forces, unified the south region and held there until his death and succession of his brother Sun Quan. In fact, Sun Ce did not 'recapture' his homeland, but instead pretty much invaded it.

In reguard to the note on Wu's strength, the Sun family forces were indeed strong, but not nearly as great as Cao Cao's. Wu, although the same size if not larger then Wei, hand conquored much of the southern jungles and hot areas there were generally unfavorable. The victory at Chi Bi was indeed an upset, and Cao Cao's forces would late rebuke the victors and Hei Fei. Wu was much like Canada, in that they were large in size, but the frontier borders consisted of undesired terrain. Shi Xie (if thats his name) was a governor of the land and submitted to Wu. He kept his position as leader, but since he was so far and so isolated from the capitol he could effectivly rule as though he had hardly no authority at all. That is just some elaboration on the truth on the kingdom of Wu. Should anyone want to write a legitmate piece of history, feel free to do that and not base it off a fictional video game. --Patricoo

Material about Wu Taibo and Japan

I've removed the material (again) because it doesn't pertain to Eastern Wu; it belongs in, if anywhere, Wu (state), and if someone puts it there I won't object. (Wu Taibo was the legendary founder of the State of Wu; Eastern Wu was centuries later with no connection to his line.) --Nlu 06:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The Top Generals of Wu

Althought Wei and Shu had there own top five generals, Wu never had any generals that could match their feats or knowledge in war. If there were any top five generals in Wu though, they would be Zhou Yu, Zhou Tai, Lu Xun, Gan Ning, and Huang Gai.

1.) Zhou Yu aids Sun Ce in the campaign to take back the Wu territories. Later, he saves Sun Quan at Chi Bi against Cao Cao.

2.) Zhou Tai was noteable for his life risking journey every time Sun Quan was in danger.

3.) Lu Xun, I believe, earns his place in the top five for not only helping Lu Meng take back Jing but also for defeating Liu Bei at Yiling regardless if many of the veteran officers did not trust him.

4.) Gan Ning proves his worth by leading a night raid on the Wei troops and not a single horse nor soldier turned up missing.

5.) Huang Gai was mostly noteable for his services to the Sun family and his false defection that lead to the victory at Chi Bi.

Althought some people may not agree with these men as the top five, I believe they are comarable to the top Five Tigers of Shu and Top Five Wei Generals. If anyone thinks otherwise, please do post your expression. --Zhang Liao 22:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Zhou Yu and Lu Xun (and Lu Meng) should be in the list. They were excellent generals, of course, but they were also top-notch advisors like Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi -- who were NOT among the Five Tiger generals and Five Wei generals respectively. For their replacements, I recommend Taishi Ci (who, ironically, performed his greatest acts before joining Wu) and either Cheng Pu or Jiang Qin. -- DragonAtma

This section is absurd fanservice. We should delete it and instead include "influential commanders." I also dispute user Zhang Liao's claims, as they are clearly opinion based and should be completely disregarded. While talent is in the eye of the beholder, influence is far more tangible. -- Schlechtentag

Huang Gai may have been an impressive warrior, but he was hardly of critical import to the Wu Kingdom when compared to others. Zhang Liao, as much as I love the Dynasty Warriors series, basing actual historical articles on said games is even more ridiculous than basing them on the Romance of the Three Kingdoms stories. I'm certain that even the game developers at Koei would agree with this. Gamer Junkie 23:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

If this title existed i am sure Huang Gai would be included. Huang Gai, Cheng Pu, and Han Dang would most liekly all be in it becaus ethey were Sun Jian's first three generals. Then i would guess Zhu Zhi would be one of the 5 because he was around for a long time and a pretty strong general. And lastly, Gan Ning would most definitely be one of the 5 because he was Wu's strongest general. Hardworker111 09:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Yizhou

After the Battle of Chibi, Zhou Yu was hoping to grab Liu Zhang's lands (the provincer Yizhou, which later became the heart of Liu Bei's empire) for Wu. Obviously they failed, but I'd say it's a valid possibility, as "Island" may have been a mistranslation, especially seeing how isolationist Liu Zhang and his father were. On a side note, a "What if" scenario in one of the Ro3K games (#9, I think) has Yizhou under Wu's control, with Liu Bei limited to (I think) southern Jing. -- DragonAtma

The Yizhou in question is not the same as Yi province, though Zhou Yu does advocate seizing it. The Chinese characters are different, and numerous biographies, such as Lu Xun's, make note that Yizhou is most likely Taiwan. -- Schlechtentag

The island in question would likely have been Taiwan, but I must say if you want to add in anything about the Wu state, and then go into details about particular provinces, I'd say talkabout Jingzhou instead. Yizhou is very minor in the full history of Wu and seems more like a passing dream. -_Patricoo

Un-Protection...

I think its time for unprotection, cao wei and shu han have been unprotected and all three became proteted on the same day. Who agrees, come on unprotect this page, or at least partially protect it. Teniii 12:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Unprotected. If you get into a dispute again, please take it to the talk page instead of engaging in an edit war. Thanks. Sr13 (T|C) 08:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

List of important individuals

How many "important" individuals do you think should be listed for a state that lasted 58 years? When we get into lists like this, it really should be limited to the truly important individuals. --Nlu (talk) 05:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I would agree. Those people fundamental to the founding and survival of Sun WU. We shouldn't include every single person of hsitorical significance as that would take forever and be massive in size. People important to certain battles or events should be mentioned in their own articles or in the articles regarding the event. For example, Huang Gai's fire attack at the Battle of Chibi. Gamer Junkie 05:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Haha, okay, heres what I will do than i will edit the list to what i think are the more important people meaning i will add some and delets some from the current list, if you disagree fell free to intrude, but I think I got it under control. Hardworker111 10:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

What's the point of your removing truly important individuals (key officials and empresses) and replacing them with people who actually had very little impact on Eastern Wu's history? In particular, Sun Shangxiang is fictional, even if based on a real individual. --Nlu (talk) 19:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Sun Shangxiang wasn't fictional, she just had a differnt name historically, Its kind of like how the Dynasty Warriors series gave Empress Zhang the name Xing Cai which was not her name historically. Hardworker111 19:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

When you add so many attributes to a person -- including her name -- how much of the person remains real? In reality, she married Liu Bei in a political marriage and soon returned to her brother's camp; that's it. She had no actual impact on either Eastern Wu or Shu Han otherwise. Everything else was invented, literally, by the Romance. It's like claiming that the charater of Jack Stanton in Primary Colors (modelled after Bill Clinton) "wasn't fictional, he just had a different name historically." --Nlu (talk) 19:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you can look at it taht way, and I'm not going to argue with you, I'll leave her off, she wasn't really that important like you said anyway. Hardworker111 19:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd imagine the two Zhangs, Zhao and Hong, deserve some consideration as notable figures. Sun Chen (Sun Lin) was also a notable figure, but in the wrong kind of way. Similarly, Taishi Ci's impact with Wu was fairly miniscule; he was a reknowned man, but didn't necessarily have a big impact outside keeping Liu Pan at bay. It was also Sun Ce who truly had a hand in building the foundation of Wu; Sun Jian was a subordinate of Yuan Shu's and didn't really help build Wu at all (outside fathering Ce). This list, much like the one on the Shu page, happens to coincide with the Dynasty Warriors cast. Redmac54 (talk) 13:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)