Talk:Deliriant

"True" hallucinogens

Rawr, I /hate/ this common misconception! While deleriants are true hallucinogens, so are conventional hallucinogens. A hallucinogen is something that causes hallucinations, and hallucinations are perception in the absence of external stimuli (Note that there is nothing in that definition about whether these hallucinations are considered real by the person).

The only difference between deleriant-induced hallucinations and those caused by conventional hallucinogens is that they appear real; in other words, they are accompanied by delusions that they are real. There is nothing "true" about deleriant-induced hallucinations that there isn't about those caused by, say, LSD.

--140.159.2.32 04:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Just had to add that some hallucinations from deliriants are obviously not there. Such as when I was on diphenhydramine and saw what looked like a shadow (a darker portion than what was surrounding it) on the wooden-styled wall forming into shapes and people, and dancing and such. I knew I was just seeing things. Other examples have been reported. But obviously, yes, most of the time the user cannot tell the difference between hallucinations and reality. I've read in some places that the actual definition of a hallucination means that classic hallucinogens don't create what are considered "true" hallucinations. Maybe that's where this came from? 4.234.51.173 07:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur with the above. I know this isn't Erowid, but I have begun to realize that there are two kinds of hallucinations seen on deliriants. The first is the kind that is obviously not there, such as wispy lines flying through the air, wispy, smoke-like visuals coming off of objects, walls, etc. and distortions of actual objects (such as seeing a bed post bend, morph, and distort). The second kind of hallucinations, usually expierienced at higher doses, are the realistic (or dream-like) type, such as thinking you are talking to somebody, or thinking you are at school or work when you are actually at home, etc.--206.28.43.150 (talk) 20:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we should get a source cited for some of this info and possibly fix up this part of the article? I have read, however, that LSD and other hallucinogens don't cause perception in the absence of external stimuli, but instead cause distortions in existing stimuli. 209.247.22.129 18:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge?

Should this article be merged with anticholinergic? --Thoric 16:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

No. There are many anticholinergics that are not used as deleriants. --140.159.2.32 04:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

unsourced

moved here per WP:PRESERVE

Effects

The delirium produced is characterized by stupor, confusion, confabulation, and regression to "phantom" behaviors such as disrobing and plucking. Other commonly reported behaviors include holding full conversations with imagined people, finishing a complex, multi-stage action (such as getting dressed) and then suddenly discovering one had not even begun yet, and being unable to recognize one's own reflection in a mirror.

The effects have been linked to sleepwalking, a fugue state or a psychotic episode (particularly in that the subject has minimal control over their actions and little to no recall of the experience). This is a notable departure from the effects of serotonergic psychedelics.

Naturally occurring deliriants are found in plant species such as Atropa belladonna (deadly nightshade), various Brugmansia species (Angel's Trumpets), Datura stramonium (Jimson weed), Hyoscyamus niger (henbane), and Mandragora officinarum (mandrake) in the form of tropane alkaloids (notably atropine, scopolamine, and hyoscyamine). Synthetic compounds such as diphenhydramine (Benadryl) and dimenhydrinate (Dramamine) are also deliriants. Additionally, the mushroom referred to as fly agaric and its active principles ibotenic acid and muscimol may also be considered deliriants, albeit with a unique biological mechanisms of action.

Classes of deliriants

Anticholinergics

Tropanes:

• atropine
• hyoscyamine
• scopolamine

Disubstituted glycolic acid esters:

• benactyzine
• dicyclomine
• N-ethyl-3-piperidyl benzilate
• N-methyl-3-piperidyl benzilate
• 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate
• ditran
• EA-3167

Antihistamines

• chlorpheniramine
• cyclizine
• dimenhydrinate
• diphenhydramine
• doxylamine
• meclizine
• promethazine

Other

• benzydamine
• myristicin
• ibotenic acid
• muscimol

Mythology

Deliriants such as henbane, mandrake, Jimson weed and fly agaric are featured in many stories in European mythology.

-- Jytdog (talk) 23:28, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Other deliriants for the main page

Many other medications can cause Delirium, so I have added them to the main page of the article to add more examples of medications which can cause delirium. Noam111g (talk) 02:07, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Promethazine, Dicyclomine, Doxylamine.

These 3 medications which are anticholinergics, can cause Delirium, and are deliriants. I have added this to the article, but I might have done it improperly, because I'm new to wikipedia. Noam111g (talk) 03:43, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

There's a guy called Kimen8, who was stupid enough to call the sources cited already as "not enough". If he continues, I report him to the admins. These medications are exactly the SAME as dipenhydramine, they are anticholinergics. Noam111g (talk) 12:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

You need to avoid name calling and personal attacks, and stay WP:CIVIL. There is no room for insulting or otherwise attacking another editor.

You need to provide reliable sources to back up your additions to this article (or others). I said in my edit summary that what you added was an unsourced addition, and so did Writ Keeper. You need to provide sources, and if you don't, your content should not remain in the article.

Specifically addressing the content you added, the justification that These medications are exactly the SAME as dipenhydramine, they are anticholinergics is overly simplistic and is original research/synthesis. For example, diphenhydramine and paroxetine are both anticholinergics, and yet their effect and side effect profile are extremely different. They are not the "same", and if you want to claim they can cause the same effects, WP:PROVEIT.

Kimen8 (talk) 12:37, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I need to provide NO SOURCE. Go echeck out the articles of the medications I added - they are all DELIRIANTS. Its written in their articles! Noam111g (talk) 12:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, you still need to provide a source though. If the compound's article does say it's a deliriant, and that has a source, you can just re-use that source from that article. That's completely fine, but it does need to be sourced. Kimen8 (talk) 12:53, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi protection

I suggest a semi protection for the Deliriants Article. There's too much vandalism going on, for an article which is very similar to the Delirium article, except there are atleast less reliable sources. Noam111g (talk) 12:15, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Deliriant medications

Like I said previously - Dicyclomine, Promethazine and Doxylamine are all deliriants. Its written in their articles explicitly with reliable sources. If this continues to be removed, I will report to admins. If you insist a source is required, please make a simple google search and add it. I would have done it myself, but I'm very tired. Noam111g (talk) 12:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@Noam111g: It is *your* responsibility to add a source for content you add to an article, per WP:BURDEN; if you can't add a source, then you should consider not adding it to the article. The sentence in question is discussing *common* deliriants, not just any medication that is capable of causing delirium. Benadryl is relatively widely-known for its potential for abuse in this regard, and you would need sources to support the others to list them alongside. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:54, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Okay. I have added sources for Promethazine, Doxylamine. Can you go check if its okay, or need further editing? Noam111g (talk) 14:36, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

It might not be in the right sources order. Please go check what needs to be done. Sorry for the trouble! Noam111g (talk) 14:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Psychonautwiki is not a reliable source because it is user generated content.

Did you read the other article you cited? It's about the pharmacokinetics, not the pharmacodynamics, so is unlikely to cover delirium anyway. Checking it myself, it doesn't mention delirium at all. Kimen8 (talk) 14:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi, you removed the psychonautwiki source for not being reliable in this edit, but the journal article used beside it for Noam111g's content addition doesn't mention delirium at all (or even any pharmacodynamic effects of the compound). So I think the entire addition needs to be re-removed unless actual sources are provided. Kimen8 (talk) 15:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I actually provided sources which explicitly say Promethazine, Dicyclomine and Doxylamine are Deliriants... and they are really deliriants. Its stated in their articles. I dont understand why we have to argue that much about it... I used these medications for years and never had a doubt about them not being deliriants. Delirium is a very annoying disorder to be honest, thats why I bother so much to edit this. But about the sources, I see no problem with them... I added them properly. Noam111g (talk) 22:51, 10 November 2023 (UTC)