Talk:Perun

Piorun is the Polish for Perun

Hey, Romanm, you are right! Another thing, I deleted the 'Serbo-Croatian' for the words PRAVO and PRAVDA, they are more or less present everywhere!

Piorun?

Would that be the same god as Piorun? If so, this should probably be mentioned in this article, and the later should be redirected here. --Romanm 00:12, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Umm, yes, Piorun is the Polish spelling. I think that Perun is much more often spelling in English, so it should redirect here. I see that Poles have covered most of the Slavic mythology as Polish mythology but under different names, perhaps a naming convention needs to be made. Nikola 00:57, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

No need to, both articles should be merged under Slavic mythology. And please do not generalize, it was a single anon, not "Poles". [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 14:19, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

What are you guys discussing? Piorun is already a redirect to Perun. A LOT of stuff on the Polish mythology page is redirected to equivalent entries in Slavic mythology. Merging is well under way. --Gene s 14:56, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, I see. Halibutt, you continued the discussion which took place back in February. --Gene s 15:00, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Attention

I moved the attention tag from the main page to the talk page. gK ¿? 04:52, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Off topic and not English language editions

I removed the last two references

• V. Belaj. "Walk through year, mythical background of Croatian folk beliefs and customs", Golden Marketing, Zagreb 1998.
• T. Smiciklas. "Croatian history, Part One", Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb 1882.

It is apparent that

• their primary topicality is not about the old Slavonic church/religion
• both books are not the English language editions - even though that the books titles are translated into English

• • Have you ever heard proverb "Do not judge the book by its covers", or in this case, by its title? I have no idea how you can so boldly (and so completly wrong) state what both books talk about simply by judging their titles. Both books have incredibly valuable insights into old Slavic mythology in general, and that entire article was rewriten by me with those two books as sole refrences. I do not see what the problem is with books not being English language editions; if wikipedia had been written using only English books as refrences, it would not have half of the articles it has today. I cannot imagine that there are acctualy people here on wikipedia deleting legitimate refrences from articles which have them, when there are tons of articles which have tag 'unrefreenced' on them simply because they do not list their resources. I am returning these refrences you deleted; noone will accuse me of writting unrefrenced articles. -Hierophant 12:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

---

The whole issue is not about proverbs - rather about your plagiarism and your lies:

Original -http://com3.runboard.com/bfarfrontiers.forum13.t19 timestamped as of 23/Dec/05, 18:40

In the classification scheme of Georges Dumйzil he was the god of the second function (physical and military power). Members of Slavonic squads swore on his name.

Your copy-paste plagiarism

In the classification scheme of Georges Dumйzil, Perun was the god of the second function (physical and military power), god of war, and as such, he was armed with several fantastic weapons.

# 22:05, 20 February 2006 Hier0phant (Talk | contribs) m

# (cur) (last) 22:00, 20 February 2006 Hier0phant (Talk | contribs) m (?Myth)

# (cur) (last) 21:58, 20 February 2006 Hier0phant (Talk | contribs) m (?Sources)

# (cur) (last) 21:52, 20 February 2006 Hier0phant (Talk | contribs) (Expanded article, added new sections, verified information.)

# (cur) (last) 21:55, 18 February 2006 Hier0phant (Talk | contribs) m (Adding a template)

Original:

Like Thor, Perun's vegetable hypostasis was the oak, especially a particularly distinctive or prominent one. Underneath this oak would be a general place of worship and folding of sacrifices (with a bull, an ox, a ram, and eggs). In Southern Slavic tradition, marked oaks stood on country borders; communities at these positions were visited during village holidays in the late spring and during the summer. Perun is also connected with the plants perunika and perin in Serbian and Croatian tradition.

Your copy-paste forgery

Like many other Indo-European thunder-gods, Perun's vegetative hypostasis was the oak, especially a particularly distinctive or prominent one. In Southern Slavic traditions, marked oaks stood on country borders; communities at these positions were visited during village holidays in the late spring and during the summer. Shrines of Perun were located either on top of mountains or hills, or in sacred groves underneath ancient oaks.

Original From: Roman Zaroff <s327425@student.uq.edu.au> timestamp -(2/2/03 14:35)

http://p087.ezboard.com/fistorijabalkanafrm23.showMessage?topicID=12.topic

Moreover, the name of Perun is also commonly found in Southern Slavic toponymy. There are places called: Perun, Perunac, Perunovac, Perunika, Perunicka Glava, Peruni Vrh, Perunja Ves, Peruna Dubrava, Perunuљa, Peruљice, Perudina and Perutovac.

Your copy-paste forgery

That he was known among all branches of Slavs is evidenced by a vast number of toponyms which still bear this name. Examples include: Perun, Perunac, Perunovac, Perunic, Perunsko in Croatia(???), Perunja ves, Perunji vrh, Pernovska gorca, Pernjak, Perovec, Perudina in Slovenia, several Peruns in Bosnia, Perun and Perunike in Macedonia,

So, I am going to remove your 'references' and warn you that your place is not here.

My plagiarism and my lies? I do not know what you are talking about, and, frankly, I am shocked at such rudness and arrogance. As I said, I expanded and rewrote the entire article using two stated books as my refrences, trying to keep as much of existing info as possible. That is the way things are being done at wikipedia, AFAIK. I'd like to add that the fact that the article did not have any refrences before my intervention, so, if I myself may be so arrogant to note, on overall my expansion was an improvement. Furhtermore, if you have problem with "my plagiarisam and my lies", then, my dear, you will have to rewrite the entire article because a greater part of it I wrote, using the mentioned two books as my refrences. It seems to me like what you are doing should be classified as "plagiarism and lies", because you keep deleting two legitimate refrences upon which this article was based and adding a bunch of refrences without any modifications to the article. I am returning those two legitemate refrences and I ask you not to remove them again, because, as I said, the entire article is based on info from them. --Hierophant 07:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

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Yes, your plagiarizm and your lies. Here is a proof where the rest of yours 'originality' comes from:

http://www.abitabouteverything.com/files/s/sl/slavic_mythology.html

Original:

A possible exception is perhaps a short note in Herodotus’ Histories, mentioning a tribe of Neuri in the far north, whose men, Herodotus claims, transform themselves into wolves for several days each year.

The first definitive reference to the Slavs and their mythology in written history was made by the 6th century Byzantine historian Procopius, whose Bellum Gothicum described the beliefs of a certain Southern Slavic tribe who crossed the Danube river heading south in just two days. According to Procopius, these Slavs worshipped a single god, lord of all, who crafted lightning and thunder; though the historian does not mention the name of god explicitly, it is clear from his description that it was Perun. He also mentions the belief in various demons and nymphs (i.e., vilas), but does not mention any other names.

Yours plagiarism looks like:

Of all historic records describing Slavic gods, those mentioning Perun are the most numerous. As early as 6th century,he was mentioned in De Bellum Gothicum, a historical source written by Byzantine historian Procopius. A short note describing beliefs of a certain South Slavic tribe states they acknowledge that one god, creator of lightning, is the only lord of all: to him do they sacrifice an ox and all sacrifical animals. While the name of the god is not mentioned here explicitly, the fact that word Perun in a number of Slavic languages today simply means "thunder" or "lightning bolt" is proof enough this was a reference of him.

All the rest of your 'knowledge' comes from the above reference. All what you did - reshuffled words on wrong way and damaged the original text that way greatly.

Aren't you ashamed now? This way you compromised the integrity and trustworthiness of Wikipedia and broke the basic etic norms of its editorial policy. I am going to mark your 'contribution' as pure plagiarism and request an administrator to block your access to the English version of Wikipedia.

---

Go ahead by all means, contact the administrator, I will do it myself if you fail to do it. The article you present here is wikipedia's Slavic mythology article, written single-handedly by your's truly - me, that is. Don't belive it? Go to Slavic mythology article and check who expanded it into a masterful, admirable article it is today. Oh, and you might want to check refrences there as well, to note which books were used in expansion of article. Now, if you don't stop vandalising articles I wrote and accusing me of plagiarisam, I will contact the administrator and ask that you be put into a mental institution for your own good and for good of everybody else--Hierophant 22:48, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Hier0phant haven't plagiarized anything. You should check a dictionary for what plagiarism actually means, instead of blindly accusing people. It is not plagiarism in rewriting info found in a book, if that book is cited as a source.

Also, books need not be in English to be usable as a source. Much on Indo-European studies, and indeed, religion and mythology in general is in languages such as French and German(ie. Georges Dumezil and Walter Burkert).

Finally, this page is part of a Mirror of Wikipedia(something which is completely obvious just by looking at it). It, is a copy of Wikipedia. Not the other way around. — Lemegeton 20:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes (s)he is a forger even and plagiarius - which is visigle quite clearly fom my comparisons. If you have some problems with understanding what plagiarizi really is - ask somebody to hel you.

True - if it is about an essay or a monography. This is an encyclopaedia article providing just basic information to an Englsh speaking reader.

Nonsense. Go to the original Wikipedia article mirrored there and compare the timestamps of all contributions to the plagiarized one. It is clear that the original article contributions are older than the plagiarized one. By the bye, you claimed that you are a person of a higher IQ?

This person, who isn't even leaving a IP signature, should be reported.99.54.188.176 (talk) 14:40, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Outside view

Hello, I was asked to protect this page by Matt Parlow, though I see there is a dispute I think there is no real need to protect the article. Though there was an edit war here before, this hasn't happened for a week - so there is nothing to protect, unless a new one erupts. Protection is meant as a temporary stop to ongoing edit wars so that a discussion can go on in a more civil way, nothing to support either side of an argument. (And I'm not actually an administrator - so either way I can't protect it). I haven't been involved with this article previously, so I will throw in my thoughts here in the hope that they will help resolve something. So here is what I see here:

• Wikipedia articles are meant to be 100% from other sources, otherwise it would be Original Research. So use of external sources is actually required by policy. Though of course this does not mean copying and pasting material - which is copyright violation.
• Hierophant did use some parts of sentences from his two sources. I personally wouldn't have used language so similar to the original sources, but I don't see how this constitutes copyright violation (nor "plagiarism"). The whole article is not a straight out copy, even the phrases that Matt has mentioned are are not straight out copies - they are just roughly based on the original phrases.

OK, then - copying and pasteing and not putting the copied text in quotes and, even worse, not giving the correct references - rather false ones - is definitvely plagiarism and forgery, not tolerated by any serious editorial policy.--Matt Parlow 03:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

• In general I think Avoiding Copyright Paranoia over things like individual phrases is a good idea.
• The link http://www.abitabouteverything.com/files/s/sl/slavic_mythology.html states very clearly that "This article is from Wikipedia" and the text is "available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License" - so it can be re-used in any another article licensed under GFDL (which of course includes anywhere on Wikipedia).

I think the sources should be kept and I don't see any reason for the warning on top of the article.

Do not think - rather read carefully my statement above and the one on your talk pages. The warning on the top of article shall stay until the very cause for that warning still exists.--Matt Parlow 03:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, some of the the language being used on this talk page is slipping too much into personal attacks. I suggest assuming more good faith from other editors.--Konstable 05:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Bosnian" folk song

The song about golden apple, is typical example of Serbian epic poetry. Language, style, and structure are exactly as they are in Serbian epic songs. The song is written in "десетерац" which means that each line has exactly ten syllables. And btw there are no Bosnian folk songs that are treating this kind of theme.Uross 16:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Primary chronicle

I move a section which appears problematic here:

The first source that definitely mentions a god named Perun is the Rus' Primary Chronicle, a history of early Kievan Rus. Together with a god named Volos he is sworn upon in peace agreements between Slavic overlords and Byzantine emperors. Here he is mentioned as a god of war and nobility, who punishes oathbreakers with death in battle.

The primary chronicle was written in the 12th century, and instead of "Slavic overlords", it talks of Norsemen called Karl, Farulf, Vermund, Hrollaf, and Steinvith. This source (url removed) notes that Perun was presumably a translation of a Norse god from the Greek original. Most likely the Greek original used the name of a Greek god in that place, see Interpretatio graeca. Since the removed section is completely unreferenced, and I find it a bit off-topic to discuss the custom of Interpretatio graeca, I think the text should be removed until a working non-OR suggestion is provided for how to treat it in the article.--Berig (talk) 14:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a Croatian folk song!

"Jedna gađa dva djevera mlada, Druga gađa pašu na dorinu, Treća gađa svata šest stotina, Ne uteče oka za svjedoka, Ni da kaže, kako pogiboše"

This is certainly not a Croatian folk song! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.111.142 (talk) 01:27, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

"The root *perkwu originally probably meant oak"

An occult nonsense. There is no proof that it meant an "oak" if some celtic or germanic or italic "lignuists" understand the name through their own language.

Warren Ellis' Supergod

I was sure I'd already find references to Perun's inclusion in the comic book series Supergod, but seeing as this hasn't been done, it should be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.255.175.17 (talk) 18:56, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Baltic mythology

Is Perun synonymous with Perkwunos (Lithuanian: Perkūnas), the god of thunder and oak trees to the ancient Baltic peoples, including the now-extinct Old Prussians? Sca (talk) 14:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

• Yes. Perun and Perkwunos have a common origin. Noraskulk (talk) 20:11, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Banned editor activity

There is a banned IP editor making nonsensical edits concerning Perun and articles about early European history and language. Please report such activity to WP:ANI with reference to WP:PERUNBAN.  Sandstein  21:17, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Etymology again

See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/perun%D1%8A

Let us use these here.

Zezen (talk) 11:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Interpretatio slavica

It is very interesting that the Varangian rulers in Slavic areas are reported to have worshiped Perun (Thor) and Veles (Freyr?). Pre-Christian cultures translated the names of the gods into the corresponding names of other cultures and languages, as in Interpretatio graeca and Interpretatio germanica. Maybe there should be an article named Interpretatio slavica?--Berig (talk) 16:28, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• Berig, with your permission, I can write such an article (many useful sources are available on the Internet), but on the condition that it will be created for about 3 months. I like to create large-scale articles. I also invite my new etymological friend, Ermenrich, to come here. Noraskulk (talk) 19:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to help. What do you mean "that it will be created for about 3 months"?--Ermenrich (talk) 19:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Nothing. I'll write it, and Ermenrich will edit it Noraskulk (talk) 20:05, 9 January 2021 (UTC).

Thank you both! Take your time, Noraskulk, because we are all doing voluntary work here and there are no deadlines. I look forward to reading it when you feel done :-).--Berig (talk) 20:22, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

sky of stone

This is unexplained here, and I was unable to find a reliable source.Peter Flass (talk) 01:03, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

@Peter Flass Here's the source: [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Indo_European_and_the_Indo_Europeans/M2aqp2n2mKkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Gamkrelidze,+Thomas+V.%3B+Ivanov,+Vjaceslav+V.+(1995).+Indo-European+and+the+Indo-Europeans:+A+Reconstruction+and+Historical+Analysis+of+a+Proto-Language+and+a+Proto-Culture.&pg=PR4&printsec=frontcover] which says "An essential distinguishing feature of the ancient Indo-European conception of mountains and cliffs is the image of mountains of great height reaching to the sky. This is what must have given rise to the Proto-Indo-European image of ‘stone sky’. In Indo-European the very word for ‘stone’ also means ‘sky’, conceived of as a stone vault: Skt. asman- ‘rock, cliff’, ‘stone tool, stone ham-"

and "hangs head down from the sky (see Reichelt 1913). Cognates meaning ‘stone’ in other Indo-European languages are used of the ‘stones’ of the thunder god, who throws them down to the earth from the skies: Lith. Perkdno aJcmuo ‘stone of Perkunas’, Pol. kamien piorunowy ‘stone of Perun’. The Balto-Slavic mythic image of a thunder god who lives in the sky on a high cliff is a reflex of these same Proto-Indo-European concepts of a sky made of stone and stony cliffs reaching to the sky." Sorry, OCR didn't catch the diacritics.

I don't have the time to work on this though. The original author said their English wasn't very good. Used [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/who-wrote-that/ekkbnedhfelfaidbpaedaecjiokkionn?hl=en Who Wrote That?} to find them. Doug Weller talk 09:10, 18 August 2022 (UTC)