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I've moved this from "Henri III of France" - not only is this the more common spelling in English, we also have articles at Henry II of France and Henry IV of France, so it was inconsistent at the French spelling. --Camembert

I'm confused - Did Henry flee Paris in fear of Guise and/or did he flee after the murder of Guise? --mav

Henry fled Paris because the Parisian mob, incited by Guise-led preachers since 1585, led by Guise's revolutionary team (the Sixteen), funded by Philip II of Spain, and inspired by Guise's entry into the city, overwhelmed Henry's army and threatened him in his own palace (the Louvre) on 12-May-1588. Henry III arranged for Guise's murder afterwards.

Jambo

Also, shouldn't this article be moved to Henry III of Poland and France (chronological order) or Henry III of France and Poland (alphabetical order)? AAMoF he was a king of Poland as well. Halibutt 16:14, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)

No need of that. He was a king of Poland only for a short while. Besides, he wasn't Henry III in Poland. I'd move Sigismund I of Sweden] to Sigismund III of Poland, though, as he was a Polish king first, and far longer than a Swedish one. 09:49, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think this article is a little light on Henry's time in Poland. He was only there for a short time, but that period was a significant time in Polish history. I added wording to indicate that he fled Poland and didn't just "return" to France. He was later dethroned, although he retained the title of King of Poland.

Perhaps best for the Popular Culture section, a miniature portrait of Henri II in a locket has been identified and offered to the Louvre by a collector (January 2021). I'm not saavy enough to do editing, but maybe some else would like to add this story: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/art-dealer-discovered-rare-miniature-king-henri-iii-1939756 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.6.155.78 (talk) 17:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sexuality

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Henry III's attraction for young males is well-documented (But to which extents did he go? Did he engage in homosexual sex?). There are however also signs that he may have been bisexual (I once saw it mentioned that he and his brothers had sex with their sister Marguerite...). David.Monniaux 23:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Here's a paragraph I got off of www.biocrawler.com

"Although he had been married on February 13 1575 to Louise de Lorraine-Vaudémont, and expected to produce an heir, the transvestite King Henry III was not highly respected by the citizens or the nobility as he paraded around dressed in women's clothes, accompanied by a number of youthful male attendants referred to as his mignons (darlings)."

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a "legimate" source to confirm/deny any information in regards to his sexuality or habits of dress so I putting this info here instead of in the article. As soon as I find something the revelant info will be added to the offical article page. --Dreammyth 17:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I removed it this April, because I could not find a legitmate source confirming or denying the statement. I would not have deleted it, otherwise. If it's true, it should be put back in, if it's some speculative nonsense, "Out it should stay". Dr. Dan 23:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anonymous editor, we're back to square one. If these allegations are true or can be substantianted, let them stay in the article. If they are from a tabloid-like source please remove them. Dr. Dan 23:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A good source on Henry's sexuality would be A.L. Rowse, the eminent historian, in his book "Homosexuals in History."--Kstern999 16:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is a well known historical fact that he was a homosexual. I'm reading a Catherine de Medici biography which repeatedly cites sources. I've also seen it in oter sources. When I have my computer and the book I will cite it here. Agrippina Minor

Although I did not read Alexandre Dumas "La Reine Margot", I did read "La Dame de Monsoreau" and "The Fourty-Five Guardsmen" (both books chronologically follow the first), which clearly depict Henry III as homosexual, that being the source for several jokes and gags. I think that the paragraph where it says that "La Reine Margot" doesn't describe him as homosexual should be removed, because it is at least misleading.guillep2k —Preceding comment was added at 01:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Name

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Shouldn't this article be rather at Henry III of Poland and France? Or perhaps Henry III de Valois, to avoid confusion... Halibutt 03:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean like Wladislaw II of Lithuania and Poland? Dr. Dan 23:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, unlike Jogaila/Jagiełło, Henry was actually the king of both states. //Halibutt 00:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For 90 days or was it a little longer? Incidentally, which Polish King, reigned the longest? Dr. Dan 20:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Henry III was French and was King of France for 15 years. He was king of Poland for a few months, and left ingloriously when his brother died and he became King of France. He was also not king of the two countries at the same time (except the brief period from when his brother died till when he left Poland) john k 11:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

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The picture at the top right of this article that is supposedly of Henri III when he was duc d'Anjou may actually be a picture of his younger brother, Francois, duc d'Alencon (and later duc d'Anjou). Someone needs to check this out.

The description on the image page (in French) says it used to be identified as a picture of Alençon, but that it has now been shown to be of Henri. I'm not sure, but I suppose we should stick with that. On the other hand, why two pictures in the same place? john k 11:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Check out this page, which features a drawing of Alençon:

http://hfriedberg.web.wesleyan.edu/wescourses/2005f/engl205/01/histories/alencon.htm

it's the same person as the pic featured on this page - and the name of the sitter is written right on the drawing. I'm no expert of 16th century art, but the two paintings featured at right on the page for Henri III do not look like the same person. CassieBlue 22:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The inscription is false. Look at here Henry III :[1]--83.198.152.44 22:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NO, look also here:

  • [2]
  • [3] ... the inscription is not false! you can clearly read "le duc d'alencon" in the upper right and henri did never had this apanage ... and the picture also matches with a portrait of the young duke francois of alencon-anjou: [4]

... if someone can clearly verify the picure as Henri III then it can stay!! 26. August 06

No, Francois had a big nose and Henri had a small nose like here [5] and here [6]

The inscription "le duc d'alencon" is wrong because it had been written in XVII or XVIII century. Read here [7]. Look here four portraits of François (with his big nose) [8] --83.192.108.110 14:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, THANKS A LOT for the research you did! You convinced me ... and we can add the picture again.

polish influences section has no sources

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this articles needs to cite stuff, particularly the polish part, sounds like folklore to me.

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

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The two sections, "Reign" and "Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" should be merged into one cohesive section. Obviously, appropriate weight to the three month "reign" needs to be taken into consideration, when and if this is done. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

His name changed?

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In 1564, his name became Henri

What was it before? Why was his name changed?

Top.Squark (talk) 11:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

his name at birth was alexandre édouard, he adopted the name of his grandfather as he became more active
same way his brother françois was called hercule-françois at birth sovietblobfish (talk) 18:27, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Forks and other things

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The article claims, "Other inventions introduced to the French by the Polish included a bath with regulated hot and cold water and the fork."

Is ChaCha correct http://www.chacha.com/question/who-introduced-the-fork-to-the-french, or is Matylda http://www.sztuka.pl/index.php?id=111&tx_ttnews correct? Dr. Dan (talk) 17:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For the fork, mais Catherine de Médicis, voyons !! ChaCha is correct.
--Frania W. (talk) 18:24, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
C'est ce que je pensais être le cas. Pensez-vous que l'information erronée devrait être retiré, ou si une autre guerre mondiale éclate? Dr. Dan (talk) 20:50, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Allez-y et retirez l'information erronée. Je couvrirai vos arrières ! Translation: Go ahead & remove, I'll cover your rearguard!
Here is the backup [9]. In section "La cuisine médiévale", scroll down to 5th paragraph beginning :" A cette époque, on appréciait particulièrement les pâtés de viande..."
This will have to do for the time being, while I am trying to find a more wikiacceptable source.
--Frania W. (talk) 22:09, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you kindly for the information. I found the web page quite informative and I might try out a recipe from there too. What do you know about the hot water issue? It is an unusual claim, yet many unusual claims are made at this project. Some are more often made from certain quarters, but nevertheless, let's try to get to the bottom of that one. L'honneur de la France n'est certainement pas en jeu à ce sujet, mais si c'est un non-sens, il va dans la poubelle. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have not found anything on the hot water issue yet as I have been busy on... other fronts. Quant à l'honneur de la France, il en a vu d'autres! --Frania W. (talk) 01:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Vivian Davis?

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There is a reference to the science fiction novel "Vive le Roi!" by Vivian Davis. I've searched the web through and through but couldn't find anything about this mysterious author. Nor did I find the book. Now, who the hell is this Vivian Davis? Any ideas? --Jackbars (talk) 18:56, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mignons

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I find it astonishing that the article contains nothing about Les Mignons whose antics and mode of dress brought the king and French court into such disrepute.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:41, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Added. The word, at least. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 21:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

==

LGBT Project

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The LGBT Project tag I've added implies nothing about Henry's sexuality. It says his life is of interest to the Project's participants. The fact that many of his contemporaries charged him with homosexuality makes him/his court/reign a person of interest. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 21:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Name change

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Why was his name to Henry from Alexandre Edouard?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 00:07, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's common for kings, queens, popes, etc., to select a new name (usually a traditional one borne by previous holders of the same office/station) upon coming into the position.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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Why the anglicized "Henry"?

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move this page to the proposed title, and no consensus to impose consistency on similar titles at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 01:31, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Henry III of France → Henri III of France – I'm assuming this has been discussed somewhere before, but I'd like to open a WP:Consensus can change discussion about the anglicization at this and similar articles. Using "Henry" here seems, all at once, culturally inappropriate (not much short of changing Louis XIV to the spelling "Lewis" to reflect English-speaking taste), jarring to anyone even faintly familiar with French history, and seriously unhelpful. As to the last point, it makes us unnecessarily disambiguate in running prose with things like "Henry III of France", any time England and France are under discussion in the same article (very frequently). This would not be necessary if we were using Henri for French kings and Henry for the English ones (other than when some third place with a Henry or Henri is involved).

A review below indicates these articles have all been named completely randomly without any WP:CONSISTENCY discussion or other concerns being taken into account, yet with a strong but not quite overwhelming preference for "Henri" (sometimes in the text at articles spelled "Henry", too). WP:USEENGLISH doesn't apply here, because English language sources routinely use "Henri", so it's not a foreignism. WP:COMMONNAME would suggest using "Henry" for a handful of these, especially the kings, but COMMONNAME is not even one of the WP:CRITERIA at all, it's just the default suggestion to test against the actual criteria; when we do so, "Henry" fails WP:CONSISTENCY and often WP:PRECISE, and for many of us WP:RECOGNIZABLE, too (I know I would never write "Henry [#] of France" in running prose myself, and even in a paragraph about France "Henry IV", etc., appear to refer to English enemies). We could probably also disambiguate a little less in actual titles if we were using the proper spelling.

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:09, 21 February 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 20:32, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've opened this as a general discussion and a simplified RM, rather than a long-list multi-RM, to inspire detailed discussion versus knee-jerk !voting (in either direction). Doing a multi-RM of all the "Henry" pages to "Henri" names would also leave out all the "Henri" talk pages from RM notification; I'm instead notifying both sets manually, to centralize the discussion. I'll also notify appropriate project pages, so this gets hashed out well.

For previous threads, de facto decisions, patterns, and (rarely) move-warring, here's what I'm seeing so far (and note that many of these are stubs, often tagged with verifiability dispute templates, and when we're using "Henry" the cited source or sources often do not, though are sometimes non-English works):

Long list ...

Additional notes: Several of these need to move to use English instead of French styles and titles; WP:USEENGLISH definitely applies to that, and almost all of them are in English, so the few that are not are a WP:CONSISTENCY failure. At least one (Henri I d'Orléans, duc de Longueville) was moved back to French from English on the basis that the person who moved it to English was an alleged sock of a banned user, but that's not good reason when the move was actually correct. Several others are using "X de Y de Z" when they should be "X de/of Y, Title of Z", and we should also settle on whether to use de/d' at all, since we're often not and using plain-English of. So, this is two other WP:CONSISTENCY issues to fix. The category sorting being applied is also completely random, sorting by "Henr[i|y]" or by things like "Joyeuse" and "Navarre", even differently by things like "D'Orléans" versus "Orléans". Other-language Wikipedias have a tendency to translate to whatever their equivalent of Henri/Henry is (though this tendency decreases a bit the more obscure the bio). However, en.Wikipedia has a stronger tradition of not monkeying around with people's names.

PS: I have not gone through every single French bio category; I mostly went trawling through Category:Dukes of France and all its many subcats, same for counts, princes, etc. I've ignored Luxembourg, Belgium, Rhenish Franconia, etc.; focus on France for now.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:09, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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  • Proposal: All of the ones that are French, broadly speaking (e.g. not clearlyGerman with a stray French style/title), and not also bearing English titles, should be moved to "Henri" per WP:CONSISTENCY policy. Even if they have English titles in there somewhere, if the title given in our article title is a title in France not Britain, use Henri unless they have some clear connection to English history on the English side of it. Employ the KISS principle.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:09, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both forms get used, but I'd be inclined to go with SMcC on this one in favour of Henri, which seems to be the preference of current quality sources. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:18, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - These articles should remain under the name Henry. Let's not begin pushing the French language on English language Wikipedia. PS - Yes, if it were up to me, the Louis articles would be moved to Lewis, though sources wouldn't allow that. Like it not, there's inconsistencies among monarchs of the same countries. In Spain: They use Philip until the current king, which uses Felipe. In Denmark: They've got Margaret & Frederick, yet the current queen uses Margrethe & next king uses Frederik. GoodDay (talk) 07:51, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My point, even historically, there's inconsistency in how the English language handles the names of monarchs. Even within one country. GoodDay (talk) 21:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Which relates in no way to changing French kings' names to "Lewis".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This seems straightforward, but is not. How about kings of Navarre in the late middle ages, a Basque country that spanned the border of modern France and Spain? Or the rulers of Barcelona, where if we go by the French analogy we would have to change to Castilian versions (the national language) over English, then if/when a few years from now the geopolitical situation is altered, we have to change them all to the Catalan version? What about Swiss people - which of the four national languages do we use? And it becomes a quagmire for someone like Queen Richeza, who was born in Poland then lived with three husbands where the languages were Galician, Castilian Spanish and Mozarabic (depending on which part of the realm she happened to be in at the time), Franco-Provençal and, what would it be? West Upper German? Any choice of the right form for her name based on geography would be completely arbitrary. The only thing we should be consistent about is that we should consistently use the forms that are most common in better recent English language sources, no matter how inconsistent a pattern that produces. If you can show me data that over the past 20 years, most English-language historians have used Henri, so be it. Otherwise, I see no reason to change, and good reasons not to establish the precedent. Agricolae (talk) 09:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Style matters are going to be arbitrary at one level or another no matter what. I'd prefer a system that made a choice toward consistency, on the basis of something, however imperfect, than the present condition which is just utter randomness.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:04, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think consistency is overrated when it comes to name forms. I can see wanting to use the same form for most monarchs of a single country, but aiming for the same name form for everyone who ever lived in the geographical area that is now encompassed by a modern country? no. Agricolae (talk) 15:08, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Signature of Henry IV
  • I see nothing wrong with the present title of this article. The man even signed himself Henry. Surtsicna (talk) 10:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Then perhaps make an exception for him. I'm not sure this is a good one, though. By its reasoning, we'd move most pre-modern, post-Christianization European rulers' and nobles' (and clergymen's, and ...) names to Latin, because they more often used that when writing. I think what's happening here is a confusion between use of "Henry" 700 years ago or whenever and the modern English-language habit of applying "Henry" to everyone named "Henri", "Enrique", "Heinrich", etc., etc. (and similar habits in Spanish of changing them all to "Enrique", and so on). They're not the same thing, just in the case of some subjects we'll end up with the same string by coincidence because they were in a narrow window in which the "Henry" spelling sometimes occurred in French (long before orthography stabilized). I would almost bet real money that Henr[i|y] IV spelled his name multiple different ways, just like Shakespeare. Whaleyland, below, articulates the issue much better than I am.

      Our general approach is to follow the sources, meaning modern ones. (We can't even use ancient manuscripts as sources directly, only cite modern publications that contain them.) There is no question that contemporary English-language sources frequently use "Henri" and also frequently use "Henry" (more frequently for certain subjects). Obviously, One thing we can do is veer back-and-forth from article to article – we're presently doing it. The point of the list of article history I amassed is that there's overwhelming evidence that no rationale is being applied, no analysis being done, i.e. no actual following of sources in any way, just insertion of personal preference. Alternatively we can say "picking different renderings on a per-bio basis is a mess; it's more useful to the project to use Henry for the English figures and Henri for the [broadly] French ones" (and presumably Heirich for the Germans and so on), since they're certainly attested in RS, and the result is more consistent, i.e. better fits the WP:CRITERIA. The current "anti-system" we're using does not. Even if it were based on following the sources to different conclusions pretty much by accident from article to article, that would be undesirable, and seems like a form of wikilayering or loophole exploitation rather than applying common sense toward a better experience for readers and increased maintainability for editors.
       — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:04, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Surtsicna is correct. An individual's consistent signature supersedes all cross-culture naming conventions. I have posted this image of the signature of Henry III for reference. If you can find where the French Kings signed their name Henri, then you would be right to move each that exhibits this preference.
    Signature of Henry III

    - Conservatrix (talk) 11:47, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I had not considered the evolution of the French language from Middle to Modern and its effect on a signature, but in the Kings of France we debate both personal and regnal names. The name of a reign should reflect the period, no? Consider me neutral on the matter. - Conservatrix (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is one variant more commonly used in English language sources (histories and biographies)? if so... we should use that variant. Blueboar (talk) 12:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Agricolae, we should use the most common spelling in modern sources, particularly academic sources. Generally, more famous individuals (particularly royals and saints) are more likely to have their name Anglicized in a uniform way based on conventions that developed some time ago and are still largely kept, while less famous individuals are written about in English only more recently when writers are less likely to Anglicize. I think that inconsistency is just something we have to live with. Smmurphy(Talk) 13:53, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Except the whole point is that we don't. Examples: We have a general consensus to use diacritics in names which properly contain them, even when the majority of English-language sources on a subject lazily drop them (especially newspapers, entertainment magazines, and sports federations) unless (per WP:ABOUTSELF) the subject has dropped the marks from their own name. We have a consensus to not capitalize the vernacular names of species, even though the majority of RS within certain narrow fields do it habitually. We have a consensus to not capitalize job titles except when directly adhered to a name, even though near-universal practice in business English is to capitalize all of them. Etc., etc. I could probably generate over 100 examples like this. Style and titles on WP are determined by consensus not by imitation of off-site writing the follows others' in-house style guides.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I meant my comment to only apply to figures about which historians write, not to living people who write their name differently from expected or to species. I also was only thinking about titles for articles, not job titles. My thinking is that in cases where their is a consensus in the writings among English language historians, we should follow that. Whaleyland points out that the concensus is changing for French monarchs. If that is so, great, at a certain point I think we should change with it. At this point, I'm not sure the consensus has changed, compare google scholar searches of the two titles since 2013: in my searches, I see 224 results for "Henry III of France" and 95 results for "Henri III of France". Smmurphy(Talk) 23:04, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • My gut feeling is the same - there is a general trend among English-Language historians to render names less in standardized modern-English forms, but I haven't looked at French histories written over the past decade to see if it has gotten to the French monarchs yet. As to SMcCandlish's comment on the use of diacritics, I know that has become popular to do this, but I am not a fan, that we insist on calling one king García, with the diacritic of Castilian Spanish even though most historians omit it, while we are perfectly happy rendering his father's name in fully English form, Ferdinand - that I do find a jarring inconsistency. Agricolae (talk) 15:08, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
          I tend to agree that's jarring, but it's an odd outlier, a mix-and-matching of styles in the same name or set of names in the same passage. I don't think it relates, even to the general pattern and its effect. A convention is not bad because one can find one failure among hundreds or thousands of successes, especially when the alternative is utter chaos and article-by-article constant strife. Which is a risk with these Henri/Henry articles; the only reason we've not seen more of it than I've already documented is the relative obscurity and the small number of editors working on them at present.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:14, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Victoria and Albert's opinion. Pldx1 (talk) 19:12, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Henri IV on Horseback Trampling The Ugly Y
  • To provide some context for the "Henry" signature argument, Old and Middle French did not differentiate between the letters "y" and "i" in many contexts, so they are basically interchangeable until the eighteenth century when linguistic standards began to be adopted more widely in French. That being said, I feel the person's signature is a bit of a red herring. John of England spelled his name "Jehan", which was the Middle French spelling. William the Conquerer would have certainly signed his name (if he signed it at all) as "Guillaume", or some permutation of it. Stephen of Blois would have gone by "Estienne" (modern "Étienne"). None are satisfactory for modern readers. I strongly feel that French monarchs should be given their name according to modern French spelling conventions. So "Hugues" not "Hugh", "Jean" not "John", "Philippe" not "Philip", and "Henri" not "Henry". This is increasingly the standard adopted by English-language historians and I see no compelling reason why it should not be adopted. As argued, the inconsistency of allowing "Louis" (which in Middle French was "Loys") rather than "Lewis," but then using English names everywhere else makes no logical sense.  – Whaleyland (Talk • Contributions) 21:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The signature argument was meant to prevent silly discussions about the subject's "real" name. As for using modern French spellings, that would leave us with articles such as Hugues Capet, Philippe Auguste, Philippe IV of France, etc. These definitely do not reflect common English usage, not even common 21st century English usage. Surtsicna (talk) 15:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's kind of generated those discussions I said, and it's clear that the argument I've presented (for my part at least) has nothing to do with "real" names, but with selecting a consistent approach to this set of topics for the benefit of (primarily) readers. I'm disappointed this has meandered off into dogged insistence on imitating a particular subset of RS who do not follow our style but their own and who are contradicted not only but another subset of RS but one we know for a fact is ascendant. It's rather pathetic to me.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding ascendance, here is the google books ngram viewer for "Henry III of France" vs "Henri III of France": https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Henry+III+of+France%2C+Henri+III+of+France&year_start=1800&year_end=2018&corpus=15&smoothing=3. I agree that Henri III does seem to be growing in relative use. Smmurphy(Talk) 16:33, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - per Surtsicna well reasoned statement. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 09:17, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blanket moves, each case should be considered on its own merits. There is no consistency on whether we use foreign language or English variants of foreign royal names, because reliable sources don't treat them with consistency. As with most things, WP:COMMONNAME should be our guide here, not imposing unusual names on people just to fit a notional internal style. It tends to be that contemporary royals are referred to by their native names, while older ones are given an anglicised name, for example Philip V of Spain, a seventeenth century royal, but Felipe VI of Spain for the present king, even though they share a name and ordinal sequence in common. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:39, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • We all know that's what we're doing now and what rationale is offered for it. Reiterating that doesn't address this proposal on its merits (and it is explicitly a proposal to set a default then consider each case on its merits in light of that default, not "impose" "blanket moves".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If it ain't broke don't fix it. This is opening a rather sizeable can of worms, why confine it to Henry III and not all four French Henrys? I tend to think we that if in doubt we should anglicise, potentially we could get all sorts of disputes about whether we should go for modern versions of names or historical versions. In some cases it may not be clear which country some historical figures were mainly associated with, and official documents of the time may have mainly used the Latin version of their name. Louis versus Lewis is a red herring, nobody refers to e.g. Lewis XVI of France, and it could be a surprise to many English-speaking people that Lewis is the English version of Louis. PatGallacher (talk) 01:06, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not responsive. I've laid out why and how it's "broke". That something will be challenging isn't a reason not to do it. All sorts of debates are fine; that's what talk pages are for, and consensus is built on discussion. RM deals every single day with cases that are not entirely clear; we know how to do this (through research and common sense leading to a per-article consensus when necessary). I did intend "Lewis" as humorous hyperbole, but it turns out someone is actually convinced we should be anglicizing that much, so I was in no way wrong to make the comparison.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – My vote is by its very nature an unorthodox suggestion in that it goes directly against WP:COMMONNAME policy, but I feel strongly that Wikipedia can be a source of change. Millions of people access the site every day, and while we certainly need to adhere to common standards, that does not mean we should do so blindly. NGRAM is an extremely useful tool, and it makes clear that before the 1820s, Lewis was actually the common name used to refer to the Louis of France in English literature. Shakespeare would have called him Lewis. Trends change and Wikipedia can help lead that change. We can start that process here by initiating a common rule for all European monarchal and aristocratic names. Redirects will still remain for the former spellings, but it is no longer culturally or historically appropriate to be calling the five Henris of France (including Henri, Comte de Chambord) Henry, nor to call Hugues Capet Hugh. Look at any current (1990s+) academic book on French history and they will use their proper name. NGRAM aggregates millions of sources, including reprints of books and articles that date back centuries. It cannot be relied on as the sole source of data to mark this trend. I just completed a doctoral thesis on medieval Capetian monarchs and family members and I had to read hundreds of books and articles for this, and most of the English books used modern French spellings. It is only right. I know I will be in the minority and I know I speak against WP policy, but Wikipedia has grown into an echo chamber of arguments which results in upholding a poor status quo. The fact that there is currently no consistent policy on names is a problem and SMcCandlish has suggested a reasonable and progressive alternative that reflects growing trends on the subject. This debate will continue for years until it is finally implemented. And it will eventually be implemented, on that point I am certain.  – Whaleyland (Talk • Contributions) 07:55, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, it's not Wikipedia's job to right any perceived wrongs in the world. Its job is merely to reflect what already is. GoodDay (talk) 14:46, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I made clear that my opinion went against WP policy, so I am not sure what you wanted to accomplish by making this statement. If you are accusing me of self-promotion, then outlining my credentials and experience with this topic is not self-promotion, it is laying out my cards. If you are referring to me disapproving of WP policy, that is why I gave my disclaimer. Regardless, my point still stands — historical trends are changing and we do not have to stand on the sidelines just waiting for NGRAM to suddenly flip the statistics.  – Whaleyland (Talk • Contributions) 05:37, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is a little unclear what we are now to be supporting/opposing through this discussion as it has become quite wide-ranging. Are we confining ourselves to French monarchs called Henry/Henri, or looking at all French royalty/nobility named Henry/Henri, or are we looking at all Anglicizations of French names including John/Jean, Philip/Phillipe, Francis/Françoise among the royalty/nobility? To my mind, the initial starting point is WP:CONSISTENCY, which we presently have in respect of the monarchs, and the WP:USEENGLISH which we have in respect of the monarchs even taking into account the Louis example because Louis has long been used in English without any Anglicization whereas other French names have not been consistently used in that fashion. Some of the evidence presented above suggests that use in English is transitioning from Anglicization to the French form but I do not consider the evidence strong enough at this point to justify a blanket move among monarchs from the English to French name. Accordingly, I Oppose that. Some consistency among the nobility might be good though. Shadow007 (talk) 01:26, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, and for the broader issue, support the current Wikipedia standard of "use the common name", which usually means non-Anglicized names past 1900 or so, and Anglicized names when common for nobles from earlier times, aka no change. First of all, if we're playing the cultural imperialism card, it's worth pointing out that it's very easy to get it "wrong" when deviating from the common name and using an archaic / invented name. Secondly, many nobles were cosmopolitan sorts who flitted between multiple domains, so you have Spanish princesses becoming English Queens, you have Hapsburgs ruling in both the Low Countries and Spain and Austria, you have Austrians who travel to briefly rule Mexico, etc. Which language name do you pick when there's 2-5 to choose from? Additionally, languages change over time, so it gets even more complicated for sublanguage dialects, archaic forms, languages that used to be spoken in a region that isn't anymore, etc. There's only one sane thing to do: not even attempt to systematize "rules" for this and use the WP:COMMONNAME. SnowFire (talk) 12:54, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose pending evidence of change in English generally. We are not a clarion of change, with which to make "statements"; we are a work of reference. If Henty III, or Henry of Navarre, becomes as outmoded as "Lewis of France" - now some two centuries out of date - we should change then.
Be not the first by which the new is tried
Nor yet the last to lay the old aside. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:02, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Robert Knecht's Hero or Tyrant? Henry III, King of France, 1574–89 was published in 2014. (Surtsicna and Agricolae have made the broader point already.) There could probably be a little more consistency, but mostly within groups and not across them. The French kings are all Henry and that's appropriate. Srnec (talk) 03:39, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Because English is in part constituted of Middle French, why not treat all Old and Middle French as one standard, and Modern French as another? - Conservatrix (talk) 19:18, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – fascinating discussion, but seems to me that Henry is by far more common in English sources, so might as well let it be. I do not mean to contradict that "Wikipedia can be a source of change", but that's not really our purpose and I don't see how it's an appropriate goal on this one. Dicklyon (talk) 05:37, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended discussion

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Some detail on the "WP does not blindly follow sources on style and titles" theme: The selection of sources for any particular article is skewed and incomplete anyway, but regardless, we use an internal consensus on house style (which is not Oxford U. Press's or The Guardian's house style). It's a fluid mixture of what the RS about English writing say to do, our original research into what RS about a topic seem to be doing in the aggregate (which may differ widely from specialist to general-audience publications), what our experience tells us works well or poorly here, technical requirements unique to WP, consistency within articles, consistency across a category of them, site-wide consistency, dialectal variation concerns, changes in usage between mid-century and contemporary sources, avoidance of inappropriate stylization, not dumbing-down as if our readers are stupid, brevity and encyclopedic tone, and a whole bunch of other factors.

Remember that WP:COMMONNAME simply is not a style policy; it's what tells us that the subject's name is Henry/Henri (in some rendition we can choose to best fit our criteria) and that it is not Jacobus or Jennifer or the Snorkelweasel the Great. The fact that we've evolved a near-stable naming convention with regard to noble styles and titles in these articles' names, yet they rarely match the no. 1 most common appellation for a particular bio subject in the RS, is clear proof we are not bound to robotically follow a [flawed] head-count of the sources on how to refer to a particular historical figure. Instead, we move toward consistency and a sometimes arbitrary simplicity for the benefit of readers. Another, broader, proof is that we have numerous naming conventions guidelines every single one of which is imposing arbitrary limits on mindless RS-following to instead prefer consistency. This is also the primary motivation (aside from WP:NPOV) behind MOS:TM and MOS:CAPS rules against over-stylization of proper names to mimic logos and other preferences of the subject, as just another example. Our hands are not tied here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why, but beginning around the middle of the 20th century, the English language began using non-English names for non-English speaking countries. The first primary example was Juan Carlos I of Spain, which had it followed past usage, would've been John Charles I of Spain. Today, we've got Spain's Felipe VI (instead of Philip VI), the Netherlands' Willem-Alexander (instead of William-Alexander), the Netherlands' Beatrix (instead of Beatrice), Belgium's Baudouin (instead of Baldwin), Denmark's Margrethe II (instead of Margaret II), Norway's Olav V and Harald V (instead of Olaf V & Harold V) & Sweden's Carl XVI Gustaf (instead of Charles XVI Gustav). Then there's the future monarchs in Denmark, Luxembourg, Spain, etc. GoodDay (talk) 07:04, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. And since we live after the middle of the 20th century, that's what I suggest WP should do, too, at least within reason (e.g., we're not going to move Russian czars' articles to Cyrillic-lettered titles here, of course). WP, because of it's ostensible desire to move away from systemic bias, is in more of a position to take this culturally neutral step than the average publisher (e.g. an American encyclopedia for Americans, like The World Book Encyclopedia, or whatever).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Henry III -> Henri III a new case for the move

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Requested move 5 August 2023

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved History6042 (talk) 00:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(non-admin closure)

Henry III of France → Henri III of France – I understand a discussion on this topic took place back in 2018, however in my opinion the discussion got a little derailed from the important reasons to action this move, the prevelance of the usage of Henri in the English language sourcing for this period.

To this end I will outline the scope of the English language historical literature in contemporary scholarship that now employs the name Henri for the king, and thereby demonstrate that it is the common use we should be following in our article for the king. I shall limit myself to one book per historian to avoid this going on forever.

  • Vincent Pitts (2012) Henri IV: His Reign and Age - "Henri's classmates included Charles IX's younger brother, the future Henri III"
  • Nancy Roelker (1996) One King One Faith: The Parlement of Paris and the Religious Reformations of the Sixteenth Century - "The recurring issue of the Trent decrees had arisen over registration of the Ordinances of Blois in 1579, in which acceptance of some of the Trent decrees was slated - by Henri III"
  • Frederic Baumgartner (1986) Change and Continuity in the French Episcopate - "These problems were consequences of both the characters of Charles IX and Henri III"
  • Henry Heller (1991) Iron and Blood: Civil War in Sixteenth Century France - "In his memoires, Saulx-Tavannes claims that in 1587 the Huguenots offered to conclude an alliance with the duke of Guise, the darling of the Catholic bourgeoisie against Henri III"
  • Stuart Carroll (2005) Noble Power during the French Wars of Religion - "Consequently the Guise suffered a loss of influence at court which was to last with some interruptions until the accession of Henri III in 1574"
  • Barbara Diefendorf (2019) Planting the Cross: Catholic Reform and Renewal in Sixteenth- and Seventeenth Century France - "In 1576, and again in 1584 when the death of Henri III's younger brother"
  • Robert Knecht (2016) Hero or Tyrant? Henry III, King of France - [In the above 2018 argument this is presented as a case for Henry, however the book is slightly more complicated than that, prior to his accession to the kingship in 1574 the book refers to him either as Henri or Alexandre] "Meanwhile Henri, duc d'Anjou set about organising his household"
  • John Salmon (1979) Society in Crisis: France in the Sixteenth Century - "His colleague Andre Ruiz faithfully served the interests of Philip II of Spain although he also farmed some Breton taxes, represented the local interests of the financier Gambattista Gondi and entertained the last Valois kings of France, Charles IX and Henri III"
  • Robert Harding (1978) Anatomy of a Provincial Elite: The Provincial governors of Early Modern France - "At first the accession of Henri III in 1574"
  • Mark Konnert (2006) Local Politics in the French Wars of Religion - "Nevertheless in December, Henri III sought to co-opt"
  • Hilary Bernstein (2004) Between Crown and Community: Politics and Civic Culture in Sixteenth Century Poitiers - "In an election of 1575 at least forty three officials cast a vote, and Henri III created"
  • Arlette Jouanna (2016) The St Bartholomew's Day Massacre: The Mysteries of a Crime of State "On the biggest chariot the king of France sat beside Neptune, god of the sea, while the king's brothers Henri d'Anjou [Henri III] and François d'Alençon"
  • Nicola Sutherland (1973) The Massacre of St Bartholomew and the European Conflict 1559-1572 "According to Sir Nicholas Throckmorton, the English ambassador, Condé's life was again threatened at the time of the abortive Gusiard 'Nemours conspiracy' to abduct Henri duc d'Orléans"
  • Jérémie Foa (2004) Making Peace: The Commissioners for Enforcing the Pacification Edicts in the Reign of Charles IX (1560-1574) - "The pacification missions during the reign of Henri III, which did exist"
  • David Potter (2001) The French Protestant Nobility in 1562: The Association of Monseigneur le prince de Condé "Moigneville was still active as a Protestant in the Norman Estates of 1579, much to Henri III's annoyance"
  • Joan Davies (1992) The politics of the marriage bed: Matrimony and the Montmorency Family 1527-1612 - "The marriages of the children of Henri de Montmorency attracted the concern of Catherine de Médicis and her son Henri III"


Other historians of the period of French history, such as Mark Greengrass and Robert Kingdon use Henri to refer to Henri II, but don't cover Henri III's reign (at least in any books that I own).

The only modern English historians of this period of French history who consistently Anglicise his name to my knowledge are Penny Roberts, Mack Holt and Philip Benedict

Therefore, we should follow the consensus of the historians and migrate this article sovietblobfish (talk) 17:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:07, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Cautious oppose Looking at the titles of the references in this article does not show a clear preponderence of Henri III. Although generally I am against English bias on wikipedia, in the case of monarchs' names it is right to say "if in doubt, anglicise" (see WP:NCROY), since we could easily get some complicated and convoluted discussions. It could be artificial to treat the 4 French Henrys separately (although I am aware that we do this with Spanish Philips). Also, with some earlier monarchs, if we don't use the English version of their name, which version do we use? PatGallacher (talk) 16:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    This article presently doesn't have much in the way of modern scholarship among its references. In my case for this move, I have captured a snapshot of modern specialist scholarship on this period, which favours Henri by about 4:1 sovietblobfish (talk) 17:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It feels wrong to me to hold back from this on the grounds that hypothetically in other cases there could be complicated discussions arising (perhaps for figures in more multi-lingual states there could be issues certainly). This monarch is a fairly simple case (imo), and if we act boldly on simple cases more complex figures can be handled later. sovietblobfish (talk) 17:12, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Seems to me like you are saying that consistency should be ignored as unimportant? I am saying that it is of relatively high importance. If the best sources for Henry III use Henri and the best sources for Henry II use Henry, we should pick one and stick with it. The sources we are consulting do not have to be consistent from one to the next. But I bet they are internally consistent between the two Henries. Srnec (talk) 18:05, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The best sources for Henri III use Henri, the best sources for Henri II use Henri. I don't have too much on Henri IV's reign, but his most recent biography uses Henri. sovietblobfish (talk) 18:08, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The most recent biography of Henry III (Knecht's) uses Henry III. Srnec (talk) 18:14, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    As I dicuss in my introduction to this move. That biography uses both Henry and Henri, I then complement that biography with the wider context of specialist literature, which overwhelmingly favours Henri. sovietblobfish (talk) 18:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Compromise, we could compromise by keeping the current name but in the lead, mentioning his French name first, and then telling the anglicized version, i.e. Henri III, often anglicized as Henry III...
Crainsaw (talk) 12:06, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If it turns out that my proposal is unacceptable to a majority of informed editors, as is seeming to be the case so far (though we still have a bit more time to run on this move request) I could accept a compromise by which the article title remains the same, but we change to Henri in the body to reflect how he is referred to by the vast majority of academics. sovietblobfish (talk) 15:50, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't help at all - the text should use the same version of the names as the title wherever appropriate, as the MOS no doubt says somewhere. Johnbod (talk) 17:52, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Understood :) sovietblobfish (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support So far it looks like most of the examples of literature in this subject use "Henri" over Henry and in this discussion it feels more like the argument is for status quo over accuracy. Some people here are saying we're not doing it for all the French King Henrys which is far enough but we should take this case by case. And when people well versed in this subject are using Henri, I'm inclined to use that spelling too. Avitus27 (talk) 18:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It has nothing to do with accuracy. He spelled his own name with a 'y'. Srnec (talk) 01:14, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes and François II spelled his name 'francoys' (because I and Y were not overly differentiated yet) while John of England spelled his name Jehan and Stephen of England spelled his name Estienne.
    Can we please not return to signature arguments based on middle French. This was an entirely pointless detour during the last move debate. sovietblobfish (talk) 05:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The accuracy we are conforming to is modern scholarship, not middle French, the former of which overwhelmingly uses 'Henri'. sovietblobfish (talk) 05:37, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not arguing for 'Henry' on the basis of 16th-century signatures. I am arguing against this 'accuracy' nonsense. Some editors may be under the mistaken impression that the modern French form is more authentic or accurate. Even you seem to be saying that if we count all the English RS and a majority use 'Henri', that makes it more 'accurate'. It doesn't. This isn't an accuracy issue. Srnec (talk) 20:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Fundamentally my argument is that modern scholarship overwhelmingly uses Henri, and therefore per WP:COMMONNAME we should bring the article into line with this. I apologise if I have used the word 'accuracy' to refer to bringing it into line with the scholarship inaccurately. :) sovietblobfish (talk) 20:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If this article is moved, no disambiguation in the title would be needed here. So it should be moved to Henri III, which already directs here per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I think I'm an oppose on WP:USEENGLISH grounds - his name in English usage is Henry, and even though modern scholars are using the French form more now, a general search shows otherwise, and my sense is having an inconsistent Henry would be more confusing than helpful. SportingFlyer T·C 18:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    My argument for the move is on two grounds. WP:USEENGLISH, and WP:COMMONNAME. These 'general searches' that are being conducted in the replies to my move request, are overwhelmed with noise (on the first page we have a book from 1884, and an author who has used Henri, on the second we have another 19th century book, and one called 'the doges palace in Venice' a lot of the historians on these pages are not French historians, but historians of the Tudor monarchy who happen to have referred to him in passing, the third page is my favourite, we have 6/10 of the books are from pre 1900 - including one from 1600 titled 'Les Hermaphrodites' and the modern books include such serious scholarship as 'Reigning cats and dogs' and 'An Encyclopedia of the Violin'). I have presented probably 80%+ of all scholars who have published books on the French Wars of Religion and Henri since 1960 in the academic sphere. There might be some authors who only write in academic journals that I have missed, but aside from that I think I have done a fairly thorough job. With all these English scholars using Henri, I therefore feel I meet those two WP.
    In regards to consistency, I agree this would be annoying but I would be more than happy to extend the argument I have made here, to also cover the other Henri's, as with enough time I could construct similar cases. sovietblobfish (talk) 05:54, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - these sources seem oddly cherry-picked to me: there are a lot of results for "Henry III": see this. There's also the issue of consistency and USEENGLISH. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:19, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    These results are not cherrypicked, this is just a list of the majority of active scholars working in field of the French Wars of Religion since 1960. The link you provide there seems to just repeatedly list Knechts book (4 times on thr first page + a medical journals discussion of Henri III of Navarre, aka Henri IV - this is why I do not use search results, noise and unreliability), which I already mentioned in my discussion up top sovietblobfish (talk) 05:32, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:USEENGLISH is something that supports my case for the move. As all the scholars I have listed are English and it is the standard way they render it. 05:34, 18 August 2023 (UTC) sovietblobfish (talk) 05:34, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The usage of Henry and Henri appears to be mixed. It is common for European monarchs of this time period to have their names rendered in English. Векочел (talk) 13:24, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Henri III’s Polish regnal dates

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Could someone look at these, please? There are inconsistencies between the dates on which he was elected, assumed the throne and was crowned between "his" entry and that of Anna, his successor. Thank you. Horatio the Younger (talk) 22:39, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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