Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glenn NoLastName

Vanity. Zero Google hits for Glenn NoLastName or for Glenn Harding Englert. Rick K 06:06, Jul 31, 2004 (UTC)

Now has a link from a redirect Bongo, Bongo the Clown, which gets a few Google hits. Info, not a vote --1pezguy 06:46, Jul 31, 2004 (UTC)

keep it - Try searching google for 'glenn' ... how do you list that alphabetically? There are a few hits on Rusty Harding ("bongo"'s father) I'm pretty sure Glenn is NOT related to Warren G Harding. I've seen Bongo at the Friar's club and several big fundraising events and spectacles here in Southern California.

I'm putting up some bios of some other clowns as well, Frankie, Clownzo, DooDoo, Ernest Borgnine, George Voorhees, (the very first Ronald McDonald, with Clownzo(Terry Teene's) assistance they created the costume, the character and make-up, as well as the name, and are now legally enjoined from performing as Ronald McDonald), ~~Jack~~ Simonthe Magic Pieman (last words before dying of a sudden heart attack during a performance: "Ok kids, now watch THIS!), Winky... as well as some information on the clown world that I've learned directfrom the clowns themselves.

I know it's a fairly obscure subject, but clowns are sometimes hard to get serious information from, so it's understandable that there are few hits on these guy's real names. But I believe their story deserves to be told. I guess this is a 'keep it vote', but I wrote the article, so... if this one is not welcome, I guess the other's won't be either. Pedant 07:58, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

User:Pedant's only contributions are to this page, so presumably this is the author. Dunc_Harris|☺ 11:25, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

yes, I am the author, no this is not a vanity page, yes it was my first article, but its no longer the only article,and I have made several substantial edits, extended some stubs, and am now working on extending the taper-friendly band list and it's unfriendly cohort... I also corrected an important error in the list. I've edited the The Village page to make it accurate but not a spoiler... also made substantial contributions to clown, though the original article was far from a stub.Pedant 05:19, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I attempted to wikify the article (still needs cleanup, though), ~~so I disqualify myself from voting~~. In my opinion, the article ought to be moved to Glenn (Actor), added to a disambiguation page for Glenn and then this "nolastname" article should be deleted. --Ardonik 09:08, Jul 31, 2004 (UTC)
Delete unless verified. -- Cyrius|✎ 21:11, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I wrote the original article, I do agree that it should be moved to Glenn, but maybe Glenn (Artist) or Glenn (Clown), or move to the Bongo,bongo the Clown page?? as I'm not sure clowns are considered actors? I'm holding off on putting up the other clown bios, until this one is sorted out, since this is my first wiki subject, I thought I'd wait so that I don't need to go back and fix a bunch of newbie mistakes...or cause a cleanup problem. I have some copies of some really really strange looking legal documents I got from bongo/glenn, that I'm trying to get a response from the IRS about...if they are genuine, I will be a bit surprised. I also own a work of his 'art' that seems to be made of a wax and spiderwebs and balloon fragments. I've also seen his drivers license and social security card, at the 1998 Easter Seals 24 hour marathon - where he won a pie-eating contest after demanding that the prize money be doubled if he entered. The prize money went to Easter seals. The North Valley Clown Alley is based in Granada Hills, California Bongo The Clown is not the same person as " Mr. Bongo " the British humorist. (If the author of a page shouldn't vote on it, I retract my vote.).Pedant 08:56, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Comment: Your vote counts as much as anyone's. (So does yours, Ardonik.) It is, however, a courtesy to admit up front when you have a vested interest in the page. Thanks. Rossami
  - Oh. In that case, keep. I'd much rather have articles on professional clowns than obscure cartoon and video game trivia. --Ardonik 22:17, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks.. I think I maybe I will move the main page to Bongo, Bongo the Clown, as he seems to be best noted for that, than for being an artist... and most of my info on him relates better to clowning and related subjects.

QUESTION 1: Is it 'proper' wikiing to have an article at Glenn and Bongo, Bongo the Clown putting clown-related info on the one and all other info on the other?

There is a tradition in clowning that a clown never appears halfway, that is, the clown and the performer do not publically associate with each other, would never appear half in and half out of costume, or break character while in costume... I think of it as the 'Santa Factor' and think it might not be 'honoring the traditions of the craft' to post biographical material other than the performers name, and information which would not tend to dispel the 'willing suspension of disbelief' inherent in a clown's performance... and put all the other info under Glenn Any clown wikipedians out there with an opinion on this? Or any suggestionsas to structuring this? I have info for possibly a dozen clown bios, (possibly 4 or 5 articles on clown/circus related subjects as well) and I'd like to do it right the first time rather than fix it later.

QUESTION 2

Before I post the George Voorhees and Terry Teene info, I'd like some input: George Voorhees was hired by a local McDonald's restaurant, before their clown spokesman, 'Ronald McDonald' existed.

George and Terry Teene (aka Clownzo) created a clown persona, complete with costume, facial design, and 'clown personality' suitable for the event. This was the _original_ Ronald Mcdonald !

Subsequently, McDonald's 'took over' the character without the permission of and without payment to the 2 clowns who created 'him', and went to the measure of having a court order, enjoining them each jointly and severally from appearing in public as, or using the likeness of or name of the character., the character which was created entirely by Terry and George, and would seem to me to be their sole intellectual property.

In short, one of America's most popular and profitable corporations STOLE their 'spokes-character' from the two of them.

My dilemma: what is the best way to avoid trouble with Mcdonald's? + trouble for wikipedia? Is there any 'safe way' to do this? or would this particular tale best be rendered as "George Voorhees who, with the help of Terry Teene (Clownzo) created the character known as Ronald McDonald..." or just leave this particular tale out altogether?

the world of clowns is fascinating to me, maybe because they are so serious about what seems to the outsider to be 'mere buffonery', and this story of the invention of Ronald McDonald is a prime example of what is, in my understanding of clown custom, an egregious breach of the clown code... which clowns hold as dearly as a knight holds to the code of chivalry.Pedant 03:53, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The way to avoid legal problems is to document and verify. If you can't find reliable sources to back up a questionable statement, don't write it. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:47, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

thanks Cyrius. I'll hold off on the George Voorhees/Ronald McDonald story until I can scan some papers.

I've added the George Voorhees /Ronald McDonald material that I have personal knowlege of, or have seen documentation, for going for a very neutral stating of the minimum bare facts. I've eliminated any reference to the character having been 'stolen'. Also omitted details of any court rulings, except that the is enjoined from performing as RM... I'm not confidentof gathering all the legal stuff together,if I miss one piece of that it could be the important one.Pedant 04:54, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't think we should be bound to (nor that we should) respect information presentation traditions of cultural institutions, any more than, say, any mention of Mohammad should have (pbuh) (peace be unto him) appended to it out of respect for Islamic tradition. In other words, I think the no-half-clown convention is one we should ignore. Improv 20:26, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I somewhat agree, but I am going with this compromise: On any clown page, I will typically try to keep the clown info and the performer's info separate. This whole clown project will take quite sometime, I have a about a peck of papers packed in a box, and it's all loose notes and clippings and photos, from the last 25 years or so.

I had intended to write a book, but I'm not growing younger.Pedant 04:54, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Glenn / Glenn NoLastName

I moved the page to Glenn, as the NoLastName reference seems to be more of an alias. I chose Glenn over Bongo for the reason that it is less prone to ambiguity, and that are there are 2 other clowns that I am aware of that use some form of the name bongo.

typically, though, if the character is more well known than the performer,I'll put the article under the monicker rather than the performer's name. does this sound correct?Pedant 04:54, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Eh. I still prefer some qualification (like Glenn Harding Englert, Glenn (clown), or Glenn (actor)), but I understand your concerns about the clown code. As we add articles on other clowns named Bongo, the original Bongo page will become a disambig page, so you'll have to qualify this particular 'Bongo the Clown' in a way that won't conflict with the others. One way to do this is keep the page at Glenn, and have the link from the Bongo page read thus:

 There are three professional clowns named Bongo:
 *[[Glenn|Bongo the Clown]] of Southern California, a founding member of the [[North Valley Clown Alley]],
 *[[Some other dude|Bongo the Clown]] of Anytown, USA, and
 *[[Yet another dude|Bongo the Clown]], jester of the Mesopotamian highlands.

At some point, I'm afraid you'll have to mention their real names. This is, in the end, an encyclopedia! --Ardonik 07:51, 2004 Aug 6 (UTC)

Yes,of course, I will always include the name real name, for now I'm adopting the convention of using the better known of the 2 names as the article title only. I don't see a real problem with name conflicts as there is almost always at least a small difference in names, due to 'The Code', and anticipating that it was more likely that I have 3 Bongos than that I have 3 Glenns with no lastname, I chose the glenn route.

Gnu License vs The Code

Finally, there is one last issue I could use some advice on. I know that everything on wikipedia is "put into the public domain" . Also that clowns adhere to 'the code', no clown's face or costume may be copied... the dilemma being would publishing a picture of a clown's clown face put that clown face in the public domain, for anyone to use as a clown face, or would that only apply to the actual image itself?

whew, it's been a long day.Pedant 04:54, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Not "public domain," but rather, we prefer that any multimedia uploaded to the Wikipedia be released under a license that is compatible with the GFDL. (Public domain is one such license, if you can call it that.) Generally, I've observed that pictures of people not published with express permission are usually classified as fair use when uploaded to the Wikipedia, but I think that is rather because the images themselves are copyrighted rather than because a person's face is somehow restricted. So, if you took the image, you could release it into the public domain (with the {{PD}} tag), or, if you didn't, you'd have to convince the image's copyright holder to release the image under a GFDL-comatible license before uploading. I am, of course, not a lawyer, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
If "the code" mandates that a clown's real face never be associated with the clown, then why not upload a picture of him in makeup under {{fairuse}}? --Ardonik 07:40, 2004 Aug 6 (UTC)

theres no copyright issue, I will own or have permission to post ANYTHING I post, but the question was maybe poorly phrased.

Assuming the image is owned by me,

and assuming it is a clown face

and that the face ITSELF is 'protected intellectual property'

and that mere public display of the face does not void the intellectual property...

in that case would displaying it on wikipedia under the gnu license impact that right? My sense is that the answer is 'no', not if a pic of a coca-cola bottle doesn't detract from Coke's rights, given permission to post it.

>>>'If "the code" mandates that a clown's real face never be associated with the clown ' as understand it, that would be all right but not a pic with the clown in costume and no face, or face and ordinary clothes...although these days clown drag seems almost more normal than what a lot of people wear with a straight face... anyway the issue could be easily solved in that case by only showing the face part of the picture.Pedant 20:48, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

away a while

I'll be on a shoot the next 5 days... of course I'm voting keep this , meanwhile I'm going to think about how to structure this best. ...and work on something for fun... checkout Art carand see if you have anything to add. Art Car pics would be great!

10:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)10:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)10:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)10:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)~ Interesting article about Glenn, Bongo, etc. but airing family matters in this way seems not the way Wikipedia was intended. I vote delete if they remain, keep if removed. Family Feuds are not encyclopedia material and taint the otherwise interesting entry. jafo100.